Gore Warning: Practising an interrupted suture -. Lacerated bloody pork looks like an arm.

[William_Montgomery]

Sorry but I suspect the motivation for this post.

The motivation is simply as stated in the original post, it was an exercise to help me better understand my med kit through practice. This forum is filled with knowledgeable people so I post various things to either learn and glean information from those with more experience, or to hopefully provide something of interest to others.
I'm not sure what you mean by suspect?

 

[Broch]

He’s 8, he doesn’t know what a suture is. On seeing the post I assumed it was an arm or thigh injury.

Even on BritishBlades where a lot of the stalkers would gralloch and dismember their prey, they’d either use hide tags or just pre-warn, and it certainly was done here too with butchering rabbits and deer. I’m not questioning the content, or offended, I’m just saying it’s no trouble to do it, and it’s polite to do so.

I remember being at Bardsters where a lesson was being given by Roestalker of how to cut a deer into chunks which we cooked and ate. My wife asked what we were doing, and I simply said don’t go in unless you’re ok with seeing a deer being chopped up, so she didn’t. So yes, it’s nature, but not everyone is ok with having the processes of wound repair or butchery presented without warning.

I don't disagree - we have in the past just put the word 'explicit' after the title to make it clear not everyone may want to look at post.

@William_Montgomery - can you add a warning in the title about the use of a needle in flesh as well - I just can't stand needles (only joking ).

 

[Pattree]

I apologise if I have misinterpreted your intention
but

The presentation looks staged / deliberately dramatic.

The blood spatter looks artificial around the cut.

The stitching could have been done on a small piece of skin just as easily as the whole joint.

I’m willing to be wrong but the presentation does look suspect to me whatever you’re intention.

 

[William_Montgomery]

I’m just saying it’s no trouble to do it, and it’s polite to do so.

I do understand. But, there are children all over the world killing, butchering and preparing animals. It's a cultural and individual difference, that being so, it could be argued that it's down to the individual to monitor the content children are exposed to rather than expect the outside world to accomodate. It seems natural to me that a bushcraft forum will cover a subject such as this.

I have attempted to be respectful in changing the title to something more descriptive.

 

[Chris]

I apologise if I have misinterpreted your intention
but

The presentation looks staged / deliberately dramatic.

The blood spatter looks artificial around the cut.

The stitching could have been done on a small piece of skin just as easily as the whole joint.

I’m willing to be wrong but the presentation does look suspect to me whatever you’re intention.

I think you’re reading too much into this to be honest. It’s a a pork joint with some thread and some red on it.

A real wound on a live limb looks worse than this, and having a semi realistic thing to practice on is very valuable for training purposes.

Rather baffled by some of the replies here to be honest. Someone has added some useful and interesting content and it’s being picked apart by the Pedantic Brigade (actually I think you’ll find it’s the Pedantic Regiment). Yet we have another thread running in tandem puzzled about why people don’t post here as often.

 

[TeeDee]

I think you’re reading too much into this to be honest. It’s a a pork joint with some thread and some red on it.

A real wound on a live limb looks worse than this, and having a semi realistic thing to practice on is very valuable for training purposes.

Rather baffled by some of the replies here to be honest. Someone has added some useful and interesting content and it’s being picked apart by the Pedantic Brigade (actually I think you’ll find it’s the Pedantic Regiment). Yet we have another thread running in tandem puzzled about why people don’t post here as often.

Indeed.

A post has been made.
A discussion has followed of different perspectives.
The OP has changed the title to willingly amend and placate.

Everyone now should be content.

 

[slowworm]

What we need is a Dr or vet to give a rating for the stitching. Looking at it one side the stitch is quite far away from the cut and I have no idea if it matters or not.

 

[Broch]

Good stitching though!

TBH, I hadn't thought about practicing such things on a piece of pork. The problems of getting the needle through tough skin is not easily practiced using 'bananas' and other such material. I think the use of the liquid is justified - maybe needed more - you're rarely dealing with a nice dry cut without blood so a slippery wet surface is more likely IMO.

As for the quality - I was always told to ere on the side of leaving plenty of space between the cut and the stitch rather than risk it pulling through.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Good stitching though!

TBH, I hadn't thought about practicing such things on a piece of pork. The problems of getting the needle through tough skin is not easily practiced using 'bananas' and other such material. I think the use of the liquid is justified - maybe needed more - you're rarely dealing with a nice dry cut without blood so a slippery wet surface is more likely IMO.

As for the quality - I was always told to ere on the side of leaving plenty of space between the cut and the stitch rather than risk it pulling through.

Good point, for the next run I'll add a bit more liquid to try and replicate a more realistic and difficult working environment. I had intended to put a bloody great splinter in, just to focus on the wound cleansing side of things too.

 

[William_Montgomery]

I think you’re reading too much into this to be honest. It’s a a pork joint with some thread and some red on it.

A real wound on a live limb looks worse than this, and having a semi realistic thing to practice on is very valuable for training purposes.

Rather baffled by some of the replies here to be honest. Someone has added some useful and interesting content and it’s being picked apart by the Pedantic Brigade (actually I think you’ll find it’s the Pedantic Regiment). Yet we have another thread running in tandem puzzled about why people don’t post here as often.

Indeed.

A post has been made.
A discussion has followed of different perspectives.
The OP has changed the title to willingly amend and placate.

Everyone now should be content.

I think you've both summed it up perfectly.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Most, if not all threads like this have a gore warning. I’ve got an 8 year old grandson, who’s a fussy eater, here for the day, and he likes looking at fires, knots, bows and arrows. It’s usually fine to let him scroll about on his own, knowing this is a child friendly forum.

It’s not exactly difficult to type ‘Gore warning’ is it? I’m not complaining about the content.

The pork roast may not be getting cooked today.

Looks like a mod came down on your side and changed the title even further.

 

[Nice65]

Looks like a mod came down on your side and changed the title even further.

You’re continually missing the point, it’s not my side, it’s a general politeness that’s always been present on the forum. If the mods changed the title it’ll be because of a decision they came to and nothing to do with me.

 

[xavierdoc]

What we need is a Dr or vet to give a rating for the stitching. Looking at it one side the stitch is quite far away from the cut and I have no idea if it matters or not.

OK, if you insist!

It's not a bad job considering.

I'd recommend starting at one end of the wound: if you start in the middle it is max tension trying to bring edges together. Beware dog-ears if you don't get spacing right for bites on opposite sides.

Needle should enter and exit skin with needle tip perpendicular to skin, full thickness of skin but no deep "swooping".

The wound is a bit double-breasted (doesn't seal or heal well) possibly because bites on one side were further from skin edge than on the other or needle not perpendicular, see above. Tieing too tight can do this too.

It can be difficult with thick skin.

Matress (horizontal or vertical) can help evert skin edges a bit, avoiding double breast and also improving perfusion at skin edge.

Tie knots square, flat and to one side of wound, not over the middle.

That's all I've got time for right now, keep practising and remember that it's sometimes safer to leave a wound open if contaminated.

 

[Broch]

OK, if you insist!

It's not a bad job considering.

I'd recommend starting at one end of the wound: if you start in the middle it is max tension trying to bring edges together. Beware dog-ears if you don't get spacing right for bites on opposite sides.

Needle should enter and exit skin with needle tip perpendicular to skin, full thickness of skin but no deep "swooping".

The wound is a bit double-breasted (doesn't seal or heal well) possibly because bites on one side were further from skin edge than on the other or needle not perpendicular, see above. Tieing too tight can do this too.

It can be difficult with thick skin.

Matress (horizontal or vertical) can help evert skin edges a bit, avoiding double breast and also improving perfusion at skin edge.

Tie knots square, flat and to one side of wound, not over the middle.

That's all I've got time for right now, keep practising and remember that it's sometimes safer to leave a wound open if contaminated.

Brilliant, thanks, we've now all learnt a great deal

 

[William_Montgomery]

OK, if you insist!

It's not a bad job considering.

I'd recommend starting at one end of the wound: if you start in the middle it is max tension trying to bring edges together. Beware dog-ears if you don't get spacing right for bites on opposite sides.

Needle should enter and exit skin with needle tip perpendicular to skin, full thickness of skin but no deep "swooping".

The wound is a bit double-breasted (doesn't seal or heal well) possibly because bites on one side were further from skin edge than on the other or needle not perpendicular, see above. Tieing too tight can do this too.

It can be difficult with thick skin.

Matress (horizontal or vertical) can help evert skin edges a bit, avoiding double breast and also improving perfusion at skin edge.

Tie knots square, flat and to one side of wound, not over the middle.

That's all I've got time for right now, keep practising and remember that it's sometimes safer to leave a wound open if contaminated.

That's grand, thanks.

When you say it's double breasted, I presume that refers to one side of the wound overlapping the other? Would that make a wound more susceptible to infection?

The tightness of the stitch is something I found difficult to control.

I will take all that on board and apply it next time.

Much appreciated.

 

[Tony]

I'm ok with this thread. I moved the warning to the start of the title.
I also appreciate that this could be a bit of a shock as we rarely have things like this, which makes it valuable because it's something that's a consideration in the wilds.

We will have a think about how to accommodate posts like this easier, it may be that we implement an addon for hiding images, I'm not sure.

 

[William_Montgomery]

I'm ok with this thread. I moved the warning to the start of the title.
I also appreciate that this could be a bit of a shock as we rarely have things like this, which makes it valuable because it's something that's a consideration in the wilds.

We will have a think about how to accommodate posts like this easier, it may be that we implement an addon for hiding images, I'm not sure.

Fair enough, cheers Tony. Had some interesting feedback on this, so hopefully that's everyone content.

Can I edit out the bit that says 'lacerated bloody pork looks like an arm' (just to make it more concise and readable) and leave it as 'Gore Warning: Practising an Interrupted Suture'?

 

[John Fenna]

Nice to have the pro rating the work and giving tips
It makes what I did look awful.... poor old Mr Orange and Miss Banana... scarred for life!

 

[Falstaff]

Went looking for Matress thinking it was some type of mesh to go over a wound, Ok,....so it's a type of stitch.
Now I'm wondering about what types of stitch go for what types of wound, and does it really matter.
It is interesting though, and you can eat the test subject afterwards. (Makes a change from wrapping string around it. "Stop oinking, it's only a flesh wound")

If I need to do a stitch on someone else then it has got to be a hyper critical survival issue for me to have to try. If its for myself, then someone else is doing it for the same reasons.
Otherwise it's stop the major bleed anyway possible, and go get proper help.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Went looking for Matress thinking it was some type of mesh to go over a wound, Ok,....so it's a type of stitch.
Now I'm wondering about what types of stitch go for what types of wound, and does it really matter.
It is interesting though, and you can eat the test subject afterwards. (Makes a change from wrapping string around it. "Stop oinking, it's only a flesh wound")

If I need to do a stitch on someone else then it has got to be a hyper critical survival issue for me to have to try. If its for myself, then someone else is doing it for the same reasons.
Otherwise it's stop the major bleed anyway possible, and go get proper help.

Aye, there are a few different techniques. Still trying to figure out which is best for different wounds.
The interrupted suture is good as you can adjust each stitch individually and also partially open it if you need to drain the wound. I'd like to try a running suture too, which I believe is fairly simple. It's one continuous thread, even tension and fairly quick to execute. You also seem to have techniques which hide the stiches under the skin and ones that are better for reducing scarring. I think some depend on the location of the wound on the body too.