Gas Guzzlers

[EdS]

Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..

No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.

No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.

True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.

 

[bogflogger]

Yes, it's all a Class War Mate.

Have you actually been to London since the Congestion Charge was introduced, and seen for yourself how much more plesant the City is?

Or does that interfere with your Daily Telegraph issue blinkers?

 

[mark a.]

I reckon the Discovery and Range Rover are fantastic cars - marvels of technological achievements. But I couldn't ever own one (assuming I could afford it). If nothing else, they're dogs to drive compared to a similar-priced and specced BMW 5-series or something. Plus their fuel bills will be huge. Then on top of that is the environmental impact.

I had a whale of a time last week when I spent an afternoon driving around in a Defender 110 at a 4x4 site in Wales. The instructor was top notch, a great guy, and manages his woodlands to encourage more wildlife. And the Landie was amazingly capable. His sad story was that recently they had a corporate event, and the MD turned up in his new Range Rover. But he wouldn't let it be taken around the site, because he didn't want it to get dirty. That was probably his only chance ever to actually try out a fraction of what the Range Rover was designed to do. A huge waste of a car.

And that, really, is the crux of most people's problems with 4x4s - they have these unused capabilities that add way too much to the weight, cost and environmental impact.

 

[Fluxus]

Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..

No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.

No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.

True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.

what about the other 8 reasons?
Flux

 

[gregorach]

Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..

No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.

No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.

True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that most people carriers are more fuel efficient than most large 4x4s, especially in terms of consumption per person (assuming a high load factor).

And you can't park a 4x4 in a Micra-sized space, no matter how good a driver you are...

 

[MartiniDave]

A straight forward comparison between my Disco (1996 with 166,000 on the clock) and our marketing managers Mini Cooper S - 2004 30,000 on the clock.

MPG - Disco 31 on average, Mini 29
No of spaces used in the car park - 1 each
Seating capacity Disco 7, Mini 4

I plan to run my car another 2 years at least, it'll probably do another 10 to be honest. The Mini is muted to be replaced soon "before the emmisions go up".

A few final points, I worked BL**DY hard to earn the money to drive the car I chose.
One short holiday flight will put more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere than me driving for my whole lifetime.
Wasn't WW1 & WW2 fought to give us all the freedom of choice?

Rant over

Dave

 

[bogflogger]

Oh yes, the freedom of choice to give children Asthma and other respiritory deseases with your exhaust emissions.

The freedom to clog up the road networks till they Gridlock with all the other individuals exercising the same choice.

Etc, Etc, Etc.

The bottom line is that it is not 4 x 4's that are the problem.

The problem IS that there are far too many cars on the roads, being used for totally unnesscary journeys.

 

[jdlenton]

Just a note guys we've been down this road before and it didn't turn out well I'm keeping an eye on this thread so lets not let it deteriorate to a point were i have to take action

 

[EdS]

And you can't park a 4x4 in a Micra-sized space, no matter how good a driver you are

want to bet - do not even have to move the Micra first


Just had a quick look at people carrier vs 4x4 mpg. Pretty much the same for the same side vehicle with same side engine. what ever you get with a 4.6 V8 petrol aint going to be good, weather it is a 4x4, saloon or peole carrier. But they all (even Range Rover) can be got with under 3l diesel engines.

The whole anti 4x4 movement is clouding the issue of too many cars in town, a bad fashion for big flash/ brash ones (but that is the whole bling culture) and p**s poor nonm intergrated public transport.

If they ban 4x4 people will just buy big saloons/estates or trated up panel vans, sorry people carriers, which not do any thing to tackle the real issue. 25% of cars sold in London might be 4x4 (does that include Scoobies etc or just LR et al) but I bet there as many if not more big slaoon/estates, with the same engines and footprint, sold.

Mind you I'm not that bothered if London is gridlocked and choking 'cos our air is pretty good now they closed down all the industry.

 

[Bootstrap Bob]

I'm with EdS all the way on this one.

Greenpeace and all those other so called environmentalists need to look at their own circumstances before having a go at 4x4 drivers. Have you any idea how much fuel outboard motors use on their boats and not to mention The Rainbow Warrier.

Don't get me wrong I'm all in favour of doing your bit to minimise damage to the environment and I do my best, I recycle rubbish, I compost kitchen waste and I don't fly - there are plenty of places to go in this country. However, I'm not going to let it take over my life and stop me enjoying myself. Yes I own a Landrover but I don't drive it around towns (large 4x4s don't belong there) but I do drive it off road and I limit my mileage to around 1500 a year. I have a Subaru for every day use Still a 4x4 but more economical than the Mini EdS mentioned and many other non 4x4 cars and MPVs.

Good point MartiniDave about the fuel consumption figures, you can also apply this to size. If you work out the area that a vehicle occupies on the road, by multiplying length by width you will find some surprising figures. A Landrover 90 for example occupies less road space than a typical family saloon car. The fact that it is more square and is taller gives the illusion that it is much larger.

I said to myself I wasn't going to get into this debate because it doesn't matter what arguments you put forward even if you have objective data to back it up there are always going to be people out there who want to jump on the environmental band wagon and point the fingure because it somehow makes them feel better.

Sorry guys, rant over, I'll try not to do it again

 

[arctic hobo]

But what do they use to get to their far flung ecowarrior battle grounds? Eh? Solar powered are they??
And what about that time they used their ship to circle an oil rig as a protest- just how much fuel did that use??
Time to get the French back in I say...

Solar powered? Yes. http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2001/11/30/greenpeaceSeesBrightFutureForSolarPower

And the ship uses sail power most of the time: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...or-ii-2.jpg/300px-Le-rainbow-warrior-ii-2.jpg

 

[bogflogger]

But what do they use to get to their far flung ecowarrior battle grounds? Eh? Solar powered are they??
And what about that time they used their ship to circle an oil rig as a protest- just how much fuel did that use??
Time to get the French back in I say...

So, are you seriously suggesting that Greenpeace should be so 100% Ecologically Sound, that they are unable to carry out any kind of effective protest campaigns?

Thank the God's that they are more pragmatic and realistic.

 

[mark a.]

One of the (many) problems is that 4x4s are easy targets. This is great for Greenpeace, but bad for any decent argument because there are always counter-arguments comparing with other vehicles.

I've just come back from lunch in London (City), and the problem is not 4x4s, but delivery vans. They're everywhere, and suffer from all the problems of 4x4s - big, noisy, smelly, polluting, minimal aerodynamics, blunt noses etc etc - with the added problem with seemingly all being driven really badly.

BAN THE VAN!

And while we're at it, the London Taxi too - they're actually quite big, and have horribly noisy and smelly engines, and hardly use the most modern energy-efficient technologies.

 

[bogflogger]

Got to say I agree with every word!

It is Completely Insane that Deliverys take place during the Daytime, when most of Central London is Totally Deserted at night.

And as for Black Taxi's they are Regulated by Act of Parliament, Cabbie's have been screaming for a better choice of vehicle for years.
(But we had better leave Taxi's out of this, or we will have 'Sid Scroggis' from the Licenced Taxi Drivers Association Ranting at us. )

 

[dommyracer]

I think they're heading in the right direction with London Taxis to be honest.

The emissions strategy is pretty robust, and one of the reasons for insisting that cabs have a small turning circle is to cut down on wasted miles.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/pco/downloads/emissions-strategy-for-taxis.pdf

 

[Bootstrap Bob]

Dommyracer is correct, work is being done to improve the taxi situation in London as a result of this PCO emmissions strategy. (I know because I have been actively involved in bringing them up to date for two years).

Bogflogger - taxi drivers may have been asking for more choice in vehicles but they just won't get them in London because of the tight turning circle requirement which Dommyracer quite rightly points out is to cut down on wasted miles. It is also safer if a taxi can turn round in one rather than shuffling. I do know that taxi drivers who have tried other vehicles outside of London end up selling them and going back to black cabs because the other vehicles are just not durable enough.

The reason there are no other taxi vehicles in London is because the conversions are based on front wheel drive vehicles which cannot turn as sharply due to the front driveshafts.

Mark.a - If you are concerned about noisy polluting vans in London you may be in for a surprise soon. Have a look at this site.
http://www.modecvehicles.com
Something else I have been involved in over the past three years.

By the way I'm not Sid Scroggis if anyone was wondering, It's just a coincidence that the discussion came up

 

[Spacemonkey]

I think they're heading in the right direction with London Taxis to be honest.

The emissions strategy is pretty robust, and one of the reasons for insisting that cabs have a small turning circle is to cut down on wasted miles.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/pco/downloads/emissions-strategy-for-taxis.pdf

And as an ex London biker, I can assure you that they can use that shrp turning circle at a moments notice, and without any indication too! OUCH!!

 

[Spacemonkey]

So, are you seriously suggesting that Greenpeace should be so 100% Ecologically Sound, that they are unable to carry out any kind of effective protest campaigns?

Thank the God's that they are more pragmatic and realistic.

In a way, yes. Let he who is free of sin etc etc... just as I would not expect police officers to be criminals, or politicians to be overpaid, corrupt lying Bstds only looking out for their own agenda.

I agree that urban 4x4s are a stupid idea, but as someone said, they are merely status symbols, and we do still have some freedom of choice here. If you ban urban 4x4s (which would merely be class prejudice) these people will find something else equally big and pollutive. Oh, and very few people buy the petrol engined varients in this country, so the modern outputs are similar to slightly older 'normal' cars.

I think that Greenpeace do some good work against large corporate polluters etc but how about leaving the little guy alone? Why not campaign against excess oil based packaging in consumer products? I'm sure that little lot does more harm than London's 4x4 brigades.

And as an aside note, have you seen the state of london roads recently? THAT'S why you NEED a 4x4 in London!!

 

[mark a.]

Dommyracer is correct, work is being done to improve the taxi situation in London as a result of this PCO emmissions strategy. (I know because I have been actively involved in bringing them up to date for two years).

Bogflogger - taxi drivers may have been asking for more choice in vehicles but they just won't get them in London because of the tight turning circle requirement which Dommyracer quite rightly points out is to cut down on wasted miles. It is also safer if a taxi can turn round in one rather than shuffling. I do know that taxi drivers who have tried other vehicles outside of London end up selling them and going back to black cabs because the other vehicles are just not durable enough.

The reason there are no other taxi vehicles in London is because the conversions are based on front wheel drive vehicles which cannot turn as sharply due to the front driveshafts.

Mark.a - If you are concerned about noisy polluting vans in London you may be in for a surprise soon. Have a look at this site.
http://www.modecvehicles.com
Something else I have been involved in over the past three years.

By the way I'm not Sid Scroggis if anyone was wondering, It's just a coincidence that the discussion came up

That's interesting stuff, Bob. Since most modern diesels are relatively quiet, very efficient and many come with particle filters, it seems that taxis are stuck in the dark ages. Maybe the engines are much better now than they used to be, but how does a standard taxi engine compare with the latest technologies?

The Modec looks great - let's hope we get to see some. When will they be seen on the streets? I've seen a few Financial Times electric vans, but they're pretty small - is it the same company?

I'm sure that most modern vans are actually not too bad with regards to efficiency, but the standard driver seems to accelerate madly, hold on to gears far too long, and stop-start all day, thus giving minimal efficiency, maximum emissions and maximum noise.

 

[havingagiraffe]

I'm sure that most modern vans are actually not too bad with regards to efficiency, but the standard driver seems to accelerate madly, hold on to gears far too long, and stop-start all day, thus giving minimal efficiency, maximum emissions and maximum noise.

Back in the day, I used to drive a Transit on multidrop work, so perhaps I can shed some light on Mark's observations. The employer inevitably sets an unrealistic number of drops , so the driver is forced to shave a few seconds of each trip by hitting the redline in each gear, braking at the last minute and generally giving it 100% to try and meet his target. Driving a van is a relatively unskilled non union job, so if a driver asks his employer for a more realistic pace he can be replaced with someone who is willing to hammer the van between drops. To give you an idea of how hard our Transit was driven, we had to change the front tyres every 12,000 miles. The increased costs of constantly pushing the van to the limit must have outweighed the efficiencies of making a few more drops every day.

Despite my environmental concerns, I have to admit it was kinda fun to drive a vehicle fast without having to worry about paying for fuel and brake pads.

I know we try to keep politics off BCUK, but as long as we have capitalism , I don't see how the environment will get the attention it deserves. The Swedish Social Democrats came closer than most to striking a balance between consumerism and environmentalism but they got voted out partly because their "decent policies" (which included no adverts during kids TV, and workers automatically becoming shareholders in their companies as well as respecting the environment ) made Sweden uncompetitive in the international economy.