Foraging and Homelessness

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ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,976
13
In the woods if possible.
I guess I would see bushcraft as an alternative for those times when there are no other options...

Fair enough. A lots of 'bushcraft' is just about thinking on your feet, something which current society seems to want to avoid. Like rustling up a cooker from a couple of old paint tins.

Knives are definitely not good to carry around, but I know my other half kept a multi-tool in his pocket - would one of those be a decent substitute for a knife for bushcraft?

I wouldn't want this thread to turn into Yet Another Rant About Knife Legislation, it's too important a subject for that, but there are some more general points to be made. For the sort of thing I do when I'm camping, the right multi-tool (it must have a saw blade) is all I ever really need. I use a decent locking folder too, but I could manage without it if I had to. If I use anything else, like an axe or a machete, it's because it makes the job quicker and easier - but unless I'm doing a bit of harvesting or woodland management I don't need such things, and I'd never take them out in the woods with me just for living. My take on it (again) is that it's about rational thought, or common sense, or whatever you want to call it. Government seems to want to make that superfluous, so that there are rules and regulations for everything and there's no requirement (and even no room) for common sense. If it isn't compulsory it's forbidden. Time was when if a bobby caught a kid scrumping apples he'd give him a clip round the ear and send him on his way. Nowadays that would land the bobby in the dock. It's ridiculous, but we're the ones that let them do it. Same with knives. When I was a kid you'd have a penknife, a piece of string and a shilling in your pocket. Call it an urban survival kit. If your knife locked it was because it's safer that way. Now what? The common sense element has gone. On top of that, if you're homeless you're immediately a suspect so you can expect at the very least to get shaken down fairly often. I've got grey hair and I look respectable (most of the time:)) so being stopped and searched doesn't give me the slightest worry, and about the only time I don't carry a multi-tool is when I go to my judo club. Somebody homeless would IMO be able to make good use of a multi-tool at least as much as I do, but he can't risk it because the knife blade probably locks and best that's likely to happen is that it will be confiscated. It's probably too big an investment to be lost just like that. So the government, bless their 150k a year each expenses claiming souls, make it a lot harder for the homeless because they haven't between them got the brains my dogs were born with and they're all right, Jack, anyway.

Having said that a sub three inch, non-locking folder is perfectly legal and if that's all I could have (although I'd really want a decent pair of pliers and a saw as well) I'd still be very glad of it. I'd still keep it very quiet.
 

Kerne

Maker
Dec 16, 2007
1,766
21
Gloucestershire
The supermarkets have started sealing off their bins with gates topped with menacing spikes, making foraging dangerous if not impossible and this valuable food source.

Every little helps?

Just read the FoodShare stuff - seem like a great organisation.
 
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Rumi

Forager
I don't want to sound condescending here so apologies in advance if I offend anyone with my tone. I work in a homeless hostel and drop in centre. Our service users come from a wide range of backgrounds and present with wide ranging problems. Many have a history some form of mental health issue compounded by issues of substance and alcohol abuse and are extremely vulnerable. Many also live chaotic lifestyles.

..a clearly homeless man came to me and asked for advice regarding which of the more stomach-filling things in that aisle could be eaten without cooking.

This type of question may be a symptom of a far deeper underlying problem for the individual asking. Looking for food which requires no cooking is often part of the chaotic lifestyle, teaching someone to cook, forage for food, etc will not solve their initial problems, in fact there may not be a solution, though any solution is dependent on the individual wanting to make changes to their circumstances not the practitioner pushing the solution.

It is unbelievable how many people lack even the most basic life skills, cooking, shopping budgeting, making meaningful relationships etc. Teaching these people wilderness survival skills does not reintegrate them into society, and lets be honest about it this is what social policy is about. In many ways teaching bushcraft could be perceived as reinforcing the "homelessness" behavior and so therefore any such initiative is likely to be unpopular. However there are aspects of bushcraft which may be relevant to people who have been homeless and are now in the process of resettlement however I would urge caution when attempting to work in this area as there may be unseen risks. I would suggest that any such initiative were carried out under the supervision of suitably experienced qualified social workers or with the endorsement and supervision of one of your local homeless hostels. Better still if you really do want to do something, volunteer, donate clothes and other stuff or phone them up and ask what they want. We are always short of underwear (men and womens).
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
"...It occurred to me that knowledge on some basic foraging; about edible wild greens, berries, etc, could really help homeless people..."

No I don't think so, the provision of hot food and drink would be quite a bit cheaper to administer and provide than educational leaflets or talks on foraging.

As far as keeping yourself alive and healthy when in dire straits, meat and fat is what they need and that kind of foraging will get them into even more bother.

In Budapest there are a huge number of homeless people, exactly how many nobody knows as there has never been an organized effort to count them. However the city fathers have a plan, they will soon make homelessness and sleeping on the street illegal! :(
 
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Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,780
1,517
51
Wiltshire
Rumi is right; people with mental health issues often lack the basic life skills.

`Food that does not need cooking` is what I eat on one of my bad days. (I am a very good cook...on a good day, and prepare lots of instant meals to freeze for not so good days, but on my worst day its cheese, fruit bread and a bit of salami)
 

Rumi

Forager
However the city fathers have a plan, they will soon make homelessness and sleeping on the street illegal!

This is an interesting plan, criminalisation of poverty. Never really works. The problems which lead to homelessness ideally need to be tackled however as we all know it takes really enlightened political thinking to fund projects tackling poverty, marginalisation, serious mental health problems, (class A) substance abuse and alcoholism. In fact you only have to look at provision int the UK to realise that cities within 40km of each other can have markedly different attitude to homelessness and provision to the extent that some cities have no provision whatsoever. It is shameful.

In my work I do draw on some of the philosophical aspects of bc and mindfulness, I really do think that bc is about finding coping strategies for a position which we either place ourselves in in nature or find ourselves in so the skills we have are our coping strategies. Thank you Tengu for your endorsement, Your coping strategy of planning ahead is certainly one which draws on bc as well as other approaches. For many people with various types of mental health issues finding coping strategies is key to even the smallest steps towards recovery and sometimes its one step forward 3 steps back.. but it always boils down to the same thing, honesty and a relationship which involves trust, in my opinion just like bushcraft.
 

BunnyMazonas

Member
Sep 13, 2010
41
0
40
Kent
Rumi, your work sounds like it takes an approach that would be fantastically beneficial for people in vulnerable situations. I agree, the way in which we learn and approach BC in general could greatly benefit people with mental health issues. Being able to feel useful, and feeling a sense of achievement when you succeed at something, is incredibly beneficial. The recent work being done to improve the lot of people with dementia in homes is a key example.
 
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StigOfTheDump

Tenderfoot
Jan 26, 2007
52
0
57
Galloway
Gods but you have to be pathetically naive (and very young) to think being homeless is a "lifestyle".

Nothing has made me so angry as that pathetic piece of rubbish since I joined here
Red

I think this is very harsh Red, i too believe that many homeless mainly men and a few women in effect choose homelessness as a lifestyle. They do this because they are not allowed to drink or take recreational drugs in hostels/shelters, and thus end up as rough sleepers.

I speak from extensive personal experience of homelessness as a teenager, and then to a lesser degree throughout most of my adult life.
Im happy to qualify this in private corespondence but i wont bore anyone with my tales of woe.
 
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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
Believe what you like fellah. If you think that people want to be alcoholics, or addicted to any other form of substance, you really need to learn some of the rudimentary basics of addiction - perhaps even your own (if addiction drove you to the streets?)

Red
 

StigOfTheDump

Tenderfoot
Jan 26, 2007
52
0
57
Galloway
Believe what you like fellah. If you think that people want to be alcoholics, or addicted to any other form of substance, you really need to learn some of the rudimentary basics of addiction - perhaps even your own (if addiction drove you to the streets?)

Red

I dont believe anyone really wants to be an alchoholic, or substance abuser, but some peoples need for oblivion is so strong that sleeping on the streets in doorways and cardboard camps is far preferable to the drink and drug free enviroment that is any hostel. No hostel will let you bring drink in, nor will they admit you if you have just polished off a bottle of diamond white. If this wasnt true, why dont all the people who live on the street just go to the nearest council run hostel and get a bunk for the night?
 
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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
How about the fact that when I was last involved, there were not enough council run hostel places for 15% of the homeless?
 

Mr Cake

Forager
Jun 20, 2005
119
5
my house
No hostel will let you bring drink in, nor will they admit you if you have just polished off a bottle of diamond white.QUOTE]

Not true. I manage a hostel (as well as four supported houses) for the homeless and my residents are definitely allowed to bring alcohol into the hostel and are also allowed to come in when 'in their cups'. What my residents are not allowed to do is sit in the lounge drinking (and if they're already drunk staff steer them to their bedrooms) but that's because previous residents with alcohol issues who wanted to address them have asked that they don't have to stay hidden in their rooms to avoid having alcohol and drinking going on in front of them. Also a lot of the people we house are vulnerable and can feel threatened by the presence of drunk people.
The hostel I worked at previously also had a similar regime.
 

StigOfTheDump

Tenderfoot
Jan 26, 2007
52
0
57
Galloway
Fair enough, is your hostel typicla now? I havent slept in a hostel for a long time.

There are people who do choose to stay out, whatever the exact circumstances, people get so smashed they just drop in doorways.

I have seen this. Im not theorising.
 
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StigOfTheDump

Tenderfoot
Jan 26, 2007
52
0
57
Galloway
The art of rough sleeping

Because everyone deserves a chance, even if some folk have none.

lets face it, unless you are totally feckless, have raging alchohol or substance abuse problems then there is no real reason you should want or need to sleep out on a regular basis.

Other circumstances that might leave you in a position where you will have to rough sleep are


Missing the last train home from a gig more than 25 miles from where you live.


Getting kicked out by your girlfriend/boyfriends house in the middle of the night more than 25 miles from home


Losing all your money/tickets/documents in a place where noone gives a **** about you and get having to get home under your own steam.

taking the first two sets of circumstances first, and presupposing finding some sort of potable water is not beyond your ken, lets consider the the second most important thing to think about if you for whatever reason are stuck out. Shelter. Let me say this, even if you are really homeless, dont hang out with other homeless people, dont sleep where they sleep, dont eat where they eat.

But considering you are only stuck for a notional night, definitly strike out on your own.
Dont sleep in city centres. If the objective is to get a decent undisturbed warm nights sleep you are probably going to have to hike out a bit.

Cardboard is your friend. When i was homeless many years ago, i made all my overnight camps behind MFI, Homebase, B&Q etc, at that time it was easy to access the skips and ransack them for huge boxes, slabs of polystyrene and sheets of polythene film. From these things a veritable rough sleeper paradise can be constructed.

Finding a site like that in this day and age is somewhat harder, what with cctv high fences and rolling spiky fence tops. But on many industrial estates such skips still abound. Incidently, never sleep in skips, it could be quite alarming to wake up to the skip lorry man clanking his chains on your bedroom.

But, lets say you cant find a nice open industrial estate, then check the back alley behind rows of shops, they are almost always accessable and the large bins often hold large amounts of plastic sheeting, cardboard etc, it is often the case that large boxes are just left next to bins. Shops that sell white goods are excellent places for boxes and other materials.

The corrugated cardboard that is used as packing, rather than for boxes makes a suprisingly good blanket, if you combine this with scrunched up paperballs stuffed in to your clothing (as many as you can). Cardboard also makes a pretty good pillow, as do polystyrne beads in a bag.

If for any reason i thought i would have to sleep out for an extended period, either on the move or staying still, i would beg, borrow, steal or improvise the following, a hobo stove, a pan, and a hot water bottle.

Dont underestimate how much good a hot water bottle can do you, For me sleep is a big deal, i need a certain minimum, and i like to be comfartable, if i dont sleep well, im not as sharp the next day, and after a certain point i get very run down.

Even on a improptu rough sleep you could make a hot water bottle, all you need is a bottle, and some hot water, how hard can it be in an urban enviroment?

This brings me on to the third circumstance, the only reason i can think why anyone might need to sleep out for an extended period in a modern or not so modern country is if you have to hitch/walk home from far away, even then only some of your survival would be dependent on foraging in the city. Having said that, bin diving in towns is increasingly hard, shops especially supermarkets go to some lengths to stop people accessing their bins, either for cardboard or food,. What you need to do is make sure you are in town at closing time, cafes will often give things away at this time, especially if you look a bit rough and have a slightly desperate air about you. Fruit and veg stalls are good places to try at the end of the day too.
Anyone who has food that will spoil basically. At this point it all depends on how desperate you are, at a certain point, it all becomes needs must.

I slept out like this for a whole winter 28 years ago.
 

Rumi

Forager
The Hostel where I work has a wet room where alcohol can be consumed. We also have a needle exchange and a policy of asking people who access needle packs to leave the premises for 30 minutes after receipt. We cannot allow the consumption of illegal drugs on site.

Some people will detox from whatever substance they are addicted to others wont. You cant force people to detox, they need to decide, how they ended up being addicted is another question all togetherto which there is no simple answer. One of the results of addiction can be the "chaotic lifestyle" or the lifestyle which is entirely governed by addiction and the feeding of that addiction. Invariably homelessness is a symptom of some form of "chaotic lifestyle". Addiction may either be the route to it or the pass-time taken up on arrival (at homelessness).

One of the things which unites many homeless people is the lack of a plan, Im not talking about ideas, the homeless are often full of big ideas but lack a plan, which is a realistic route through which to execute the big ideas. It is the lack of plan which has usually got them there in the 1st place..

Teaching bushcraft and the sense of achievement which learning some of the skills would bring is a great idea, but first you need to identify and treat the addictions, mental health issues, and the bushcraft should not be an end in it self, but part of a unified therapy towards a "plan".
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,976
13
In the woods if possible.
The Hostel where I work has ... a needle exchange ...

I'm glad to see a sensible policy. For quite a while around here it's seemed that needles are given away with no consideration to where the users will leave them. That means I'm picking them up around Pennytown Ponds to stop the kids playing with them.

Some people will detox ... others wont. You cant force people to detox, they need to decide

But do you offer incentives? I'm sure those of us who see the criminal effects of addiction would like to hear that there's at least some pressure towards cleaning up. I chose the word 'pressure' carefully. I though about 'encouragement' but discarded it in favour of something stronger. I know that there are a lot of pressures already. I have some myself. :)

One of the things which unites many homeless people is ... the lack of plan which has usually got them there ... the sense of achievement which learning some of the skills would bring is a great idea, but first you need to identify and treat the addictions, mental health issues ... part of a unified therapy towards a "plan".

Agreed.
 

BunnyMazonas

Member
Sep 13, 2010
41
0
40
Kent
Stig, I'm sorry if your experience of homelessness has led you to believe it is a choice.

My other half did not choose, at the age of 17, to lose his fiance, become estranged from his family, lose his job, lose his college course and then lose the pokey little flat he called home. He had not ended up in that situation due to drugs, or due to a lifestyle choice. Mental health issues make life very hard for people- I should know, I have them myself albeit relativedly mild, and the simple truth is that a person in the throes of mental health issues who does not have a natural determination and stubbornness to survive may not be able to fight for the things that will help them, or even know how to find and access them.

Then there is one of our best friends; a lovely, gentle man who was put into foster care and then sexually, physically and mentally abused by his foster family. Under the age of consent, emotionally in turmoil and unable to trust anyone, he ended up on the streets. Of course, as soon as he was legally an adult he signed up to be put on the waiting list for housing and tried to get his life back on track. He was in his late 20s before he got his first flat, but after that he worked himself to the bone to get a job, a home he paid rent for himself and a future.

There is another friend, with severe PTSD, an ex-military man who served in the Fauklands. He speaks a constant stream of gibberish and sings to me whenever we meet him. A lovely, sweet man who is on the street because the real world is simply too much for him. Come to think of it, a high number of the people we knew had served in the military; the older ones, at least. Yes, some of these guys, many of them even, casually took recreational drugs. But most had come to that as a result of homelessness, not as a cause of it. When you've lost everything, being able to forget for a few hours is a blessing.

Help for homeless people is underfunded and slow to be provided, and a bit of help in the meantime could do wonders. How many hungry, cold nights could have been easier for my friend if he'd had the chance to learn bushcraft?
 
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Rumi

Forager
This is an exception to the general rule..
..before he got his first flat, but after that he worked himself to the bone to get a job, a home he paid rent for himself and a future..

This is one of the commonest stories I know

man who was put into foster care and then sexually, physically and mentally abused by his foster family. Under the age of consent, emotionally in turmoil and unable to trust anyone, he ended up on the streets

and this is deceptive..

There is another friend, with severe PTSD, an ex-military man who served in the.. ..who is on the street because the real world is simply too much for him..
and out of all of my clients among the most DANGEROUS and unpredictable..

Help for homeless people is underfunded and slow to be provided, and a bit of help in the meantime could do wonders. How many hungry, cold nights could have been easier for my friend if he'd had the chance to learn bushcraft?

It sounds so ideal.. in reality it is nigh on impossible. There is a street culture which unless you immerse in it you have no comprehension of. It is a culture where one moment you are all friends, the next moment you are beaten up or grassed for a small bag of "brown" by someone you thought was your friend. If you want to help the homeless goand work in the shelter as a volunteer in the middle of winter when there is 3 foot of snow on the ground, -7 outside and the guys steam when they walk through the door, have frostbite and trench foot, breath special brew at you and tell you to go f*** yourself when you ask them not to chuck their needles on the floor in the toilet. Bushcraft is irrelevant in these circumstances and besides there are never enough pallets to burn when its that cold.
 

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