Food Service Charges

[plastic-ninja]

I’m not a fan of service charges. I think the price quoted on the menu should be the price paid by the consumer.
wages should be cover by the manage of the business not an additional levy

All additional (discretionary) service charges in the UK must be on the menu. Thats the law.
It's fine to remove it if you don't agree with it and just pay the revised bill. That's also the law.
If the service charge isn't on the menu report the restaurant to Trading Standards.
If you go to buy a car you'll find that the price writ large on the windscreen is rarely the price you'll be paying. Incidentally it also works the other way round. If you as a customer manage to negotiate a discount with the trader would you be breaking your own rule? There has to be some flexibility to make the system work.

 

[TeeDee]

All additional (discretionary) service charges in the UK must be on the menu. Thats the law.
It's fine to remove it if you don't agree with it and just pay the revised bill. That's also the law.
If the service charge isn't on the menu report the restaurant to Trading Standards.
If you go to buy a car you'll find that the price writ large on the windscreen is rarely the price you'll be paying.

If you are talking about optional extras? Then isn't that like me adding a Side to my dish? additional item , additional charge.

At now point is there an additional charge made for the sales person adding a payment for his/her sales service to you as the customer. That is underwritten by the business within the original price of the car- Its not revealed as an ancillary extra when it comes to pay for the item.

Incidentally it also works the other way round. If you as a customer manage to negotiate a discount with the trader would you be breaking your own rule? There has to be some flexibility to make the system work.

No. Its simply not the same - If i ate somewhere then when is came to pay for the bill just automatically reduced it by 12% without reason - then THAT would be the same.

I could have a special badge made up I guess ( with really small writing ) stating that if served this customer expects an automatic 12% reduction off of his Bill.

 

[plastic-ninja]

Thank you again for a detailed reply. I should make it clear I have NO issue with Tipping in general. What I have an issue with is Mandatory Service Charges being fixed to the bill.

If you feel I maybe arguing semantics , I would respectfully disagree - I started the thread regarding Service Charges , but its thread drifted to Tipping in general. To clarify the question I raised was regarding the automatic addition of Service Charges to bills. It simply doesn't take into account for the customer if YOU ( as the customer ) received good and attentive service.

I appreciate what you say regarding your staff working hard and delivering over and beyond and I have no doubt if I was served by them I would feel thus inclined to Tip. That would be my decision at the Time. If you feel they all and every time deserve their additional payment then I would suggest respectfully thats a different issue.

The downside I see of the automatic Service Charge ( if it gains traction ) is that staff could see no reason for being hospitable and welcoming. I've also experienced that type of service before from serving staff and obviously then they DON'T get a tip.

Hope that clarifies it. I'm PRO Tipping ( where justified ) , I'm CON automatic additional Toll for choosing to give my custom to an establishment.

I guess its a bit like Pavlov's dog and associating positive experience and performance with Positive Rewards - With fixed Service charges I don't see how people create their own motivation.

I agree with what you're saying personally, which is largely why we don't have a service charge at my bar.
But the service charge in the UK is never Mandatory. It is always a discretionary charge which you can knock off for any reason you like; even if you've just had a bad day & you're feeling snarky.
The upside of the service charge on the bill for the staff is that they will, more often than not, get a tip via that charge when the customer pays by card. Our system is rapidly becoming cashless, driven by the banks, and tips in cash will soon be a thing of the past I'm guessing. 80% of our turnover comes through card payments but at the moment people are carrying cash so our front of house workers do get tips but it's noticeable over the last few years that tips have declined.
I get the motivation thing, but really the people who aren't motivated to do their job to the best of their ability won't ever be motivated.

 

[plastic-ninja]

If you are talking about optional extras? Then isn't that like me adding a Side to my dish? additional item , additional charge.

At now point is there an additional charge made for the sales person adding a payment for his/her sales service to you as the customer. That is underwritten by the business within the original price of the car- Its not revealed as an ancillary extra when it comes to pay for the item.





No. Its simply not the same - If i ate somewhere then when is came to pay for the bill just automatically reduced it by 12% without reason - then THAT would be the same.

I could have a special badge made up I guess ( with really small writing ) stating that if served this customer expects an automatic 12% reduction off of his Bill.

There are some people who always ask for discount when they buy anything, even drinks. They never ask until they've finished their drinks and then ask for a free round of shots while they get the money together. They tend to be the ones who arrive in a group of ten and then ask for separate bills as well. I invariably politely refuse their offers of a great review on Tripadvisor and posting pictures of their drinks to their few hundred social media followers and then bar them for life.


I wasn't talking about optional extras. There is a charge for Number plates, often an administration charge for car finance, extra charges for delivery (when the car is already on the premises). Thats just for new cars! Used cars have a whole host of possibilities. Add to that the probable reduction in value of your trade-in so that the dealer can reduce his VAT liability and the figures can be dramatically different.
You'd expect to pay extra for extra value like metallic paint but quite often these days you will be paying extra for any paint on a factory order! The salesman's commission goes up every time he adds £s to your invoice. It keeps them motivated. I sold cars for a few years too.

 

[TeeDee]

I agree with what you're saying personally, which is largely why we don't have a service charge at my bar.
But the service charge in the UK is never Mandatory. It is always a discretionary charge which you can knock off for any reason you like; even if you've just had a bad day & you're feeling snarky.

I don't see or rather maybe I can't get my head around why something should appear on my bill which then maybe deducted if I feel like it. I'm sure many ( I'm thinking older generation ) wouldn't even think of checking their bill .

Again thank you for your detailed and honest experience from 'the other side'

 

[Fadcode]

The price on any item, in law, means nothing it is looked on as "an invitation to treat", and you may finally pay more or pay less, it should be looked upon as a starting point, and is in most cases is negotiable.

 

[TeeDee]

The price on any item, in law, means nothing it is looked on as "an invitation to treat", and you may finally pay more or pay less, it should be looked upon as a starting point, and is in most cases is negotiable.

Even after you've 'used' ( in this case - Consumed ) the item?

What in this case if we aren't even talking about Service Charges.

I can understanding Bartering / haggling before a physical transaction but after?

 

[Fadcode]

Look up invitation, google is your friend.

 

[TeeDee]

Look up invitation, google is your friend.

Its your assertation dude.

 

[Fadcode]

Its not mine, Dude, it's the Law

Like my thoughts would be if you seen there was a service charge when you read the menu, the it would be corteous to inform the restaraunt.cafe etc, that you did not wish to pay it, rather than after the meal was eaten and the bill was given to you.

 

[TeeDee]

Its not mine, Dude, it's the Law

Like my thoughts would be if you seen there was a service charge when you read the menu, the it would be corteous to inform the restaraunt.cafe etc, that you did not wish to pay it, rather than after the meal was eaten and the bill was given to you.

Which WASN'T clear on the Menu. Dude.

 

[Fadcode]

thats your assertion, if it wasn't clear then it must have been there.

 

[Mesquite]

Interestingly I was out at a country pub in East Sussex for lunch today and they had this on the bottom of their menu.

It's clear and fully explains how it's divvied up. I didn't have any qualms with it at all and we were asked when we went to settle up if we were happy with it.

 

[plastic-ninja]

The price on any item, in law, means nothing it is looked on as "an invitation to treat", and you may finally pay more or pay less, it should be looked upon as a starting point, and is in most cases is negotiable.

Restaurants are treated slightly differently to retailers in this point of law. The invitation to treat becomes a binding contract once you have placed your order and it has been accepted by the restaurant. Service charge does not form part of either the invitation to treat or the contract because of its discretionary nature. You are entitled to remove it as it is not part of the contract in law. If you have a truly terrible meal and you have good grounds to believe this you may also be entitled to reduce the payment to the restaurant accordingly. I’m not sure if this is still lawful but it used to be the case in England.

 

[TeeDee]

Restaurants are treated slightly differently to retailers in this point of law. The invitation to treat becomes a binding contract once you have placed your order and it has been accepted by the restaurant. Service charge does not form part of either the invitation to treat or the contract because of its discretionary nature. You are entitled to remove it as it is not part of the contract in law. If you have a truly terrible meal and you have good grounds to believe this you may also be entitled to reduce the payment to the restaurant accordingly. I’m not sure if this is still lawful but it used to be the case in England.

Thank you for some actual informed expertise on the matter again PN.

 

[Fadcode]

Restaurants are treated slightly differently to retailers in this point of law. The invitation to treat becomes a binding contract once you have placed your order and it has been accepted by the restaurant. Service charge does not form part of either the invitation to treat or the contract because of its discretionary nature. You are entitled to remove it as it is not part of the contract in law. If you have a truly terrible meal and you have good grounds to believe this you may also be entitled to reduce the payment to the restaurant accordingly. I’m not sure if this is still lawful but it used to be the case in England.

Although Restaurants my be treated slightly differently I cannot see how the contract would be binding once you have placed your order and the restaurant has accepted it, if you still had the ability to change the amount payable because you had a bad meal, albeit that if you complained at the time the food was served to you, and you had not eaten it fully, you would still have the right to refuse or amend payment. Once the meal was eaten fully you would have no right to pay less even if you didn't enjoy the meal.
If however the Restaurateur agreed on a lower charge, and you agreed, then this could void the first contract and form a new one.

One thing that does puzzle me, is most establishments nowadays take, and in some instances prefer their customers to pay by card, rather than in cash, and this would normally mean the business would be charged a fee to process the card payment, a fee of about 2% (guesstimate) of the total, and I often wonder if this extra fee would come out of the service charge, before the balance was paid to the staff,.as charging extra for using a debit/credit card to pay for a purchase is illegal,

After these excess payments were banned for using cards,( and businesses were allowed to charge up to 20% for using a credit card) most retailers and restraurants started putting a service charge on the bill, and as it didn't stipulate it was for using a card for payment it was thus legal.. Just Eat for instance have a 50p service charge on an order, which used to be only charged if you paid by card.

One thing a lot of sellers don't realise, if someone pays via Paypal, Apple pay or by credit or debit card, it is illegal to charge an extra fee, and quite often you will see items priced plus 4% if paying via paypal. Normally it would be better to price the article including fees , postage etc.
So maybe this is one of the reasons service charges are now quite common.

 

[plastic-ninja]

Although Restaurants my be treated slightly differently I cannot see how the contract would be binding once you have placed your order and the restaurant has accepted it, if you still had the ability to change the amount payable because you had a bad meal, albeit that if you complained at the time the food was served to you, and you had not eaten it fully, you would still have the right to refuse or amend payment. Once the meal was eaten fully you would have no right to pay less even if you didn't enjoy the meal.
If however the Restaurateur agreed on a lower charge, and you agreed, then this could void the first contract and form a new one.

As I said above, it may no longer be law. 'Twas a while ago to be sure. The contract with a restaurant , if I remember correctly was quite simple in that once the customer places the order and it is processed by the restaurant, i.e. the food ordered is delivered, there is a binding contract requiring payment for services. The complexity was in the subsequent consumer right to reduce the amount paid to the restaurant in the event of substandard delivery in terms of the food. The contract could be said to be between the two parties in that the restaurant agrees to supply the customer with the food as per the customer order and the customer agrees to pay the restaurant in respect of such supply but reserves the right to amend such payment should the goods (food, drink ) be of lesser quality than the customer could have reasonably expected when the order was placed. Or something like that!
Regarding card payments, if a service charge is included in the card payment I think that the management are allowed to deduct the card charges from the service portion only before passing the balance over to the employee-managed tips scheme.
Card payments are the norm and just the way of the world these days especially for higher end bars and pretty much all restaurants. Although we have to pay a percentage and sometimes a transaction fee for each payment we don't have much choice whether we take them. Cash-only businesses are pretty rare these days and if I pay cash into the bank I get charged a fee for that too. If I was paying a lot of cash in those fees would be more than the associated card fees as the banks don't like cash either. If you're looking for proof of this just ask for some cashback pretty much anywhere you use your debit card. They will be only too happy to oblige as it will save them money banking it. It is very common in my industry, as is paying staff and suppliers in cash. Card fees have come down a lot over the last 10 years, driven by the banks, who very quickly realised that electronic transactions cost them almost nothing in terms of man hours.

 

[Toddy]

It's a mixed bag round here.
If I go out for a coffee with a friend, we still leave small change (usually a couple of pounds worth) under the saucer for the waitress when she clears the table.
Probably terribly old fashioned nowadays but quite normal still.
Other coffee shops just have a big mug sitting at the till and we drop change in there.

To have it 'specified', that we're expected to leave 20%, would not go down well.

M

 

[sunndog]

Seems underhand to me.

If it's not mandatory you should be asked if you'd like to pay it I reckon.

Also......dude

 

[plastic-ninja]

It's a mixed bag round here.
If I go out for a coffee with a friend, we still leave small change (usually a couple of pounds worth) under the saucer for the waitress when she clears the table.
Probably terribly old fashioned nowadays but quite normal still.
Other coffee shops just have a big mug sitting at the till and we drop change in there.

To have it 'specified', that we're expected to leave 20%, would not go down well.

M

I think 20% is very rare here as a service charge. Its normal in the USA but the UK tends to be 12.5% I find.
Simon