OK, I did not say we should not help in a first response situation. Untrained well meaning amateurs cause all kinds of issues in emergency situations. As you stated in your response in the case of bushcrafters we are likely to encounter emergencies in locations where help may be difficult and certainly longer in arriving. As I stated and you confimred yourself its not FAK that are required but an abitlity to assess and contain the situation, providing shelter and warmth until help can arrive. So as I stated and stand by its not a huge FAK thats needed but good first response training.....
First Aid Kit
- Thread starter TrampingKiwi
- Start date
It's not a "concept" that people can and do cause more damage when they don't know what they are doing, it's a fact; if you dint know what you are doing, contact emergency services first if possible, they will guide you...don't just jump in and hope.
A "snapped neck" does not always mean damaged spine...but there are numerous accounts of (for eg) motorbike accident victims being paralysed after a helpful bystander has pulled their helmet off and helpfully moved them into recovery position. These things can and do happen unfortunetly.
Some things are easier than others to deal with, we probably all know to put pressure on a wound to stem bleeding, but what about internal bleeding? I'd be suprised if anyone could guess their way saflry through that (assuming they even know it's happening, even paramedics can miss it)
A "snapped neck" does not always mean damaged spine...but there are numerous accounts of (for eg) motorbike accident victims being paralysed after a helpful bystander has pulled their helmet off and helpfully moved them into recovery position. These things can and do happen unfortunetly.
Some things are easier than others to deal with, we probably all know to put pressure on a wound to stem bleeding, but what about internal bleeding? I'd be suprised if anyone could guess their way saflry through that (assuming they even know it's happening, even paramedics can miss it)
+1 The standard UK HSE approved workplace FAKs don't have these sort of things (AFAIK they just have different multiples of gloves, plasters, eye bandages, wound dressings, triangular bandages etc. depending on the size of workplace) and specifically exclude pills and ointments for fear of allergic reaction and cross contamination which is why the OPs request for advice on what to include was and is pertinent. As others have said, FAKs should be personal and tailored to the intended person (or group) and, activity and location.
Blisters are a perfect example of a minor issue which (if the sufferer doesn't have the knowledge or sense to stop and deal with a "hotspot" when it first starts), has the potential to slow down the sufferer and start a chain of events which could result in a whole group (possibly without lights or shelter) spending an unplanned night in the great outdoors, or (far worse) missing last orders for hot food at the hostelry they were heading for! :yikes:
True but as Scarfell says, inappropriate and unnecessary handling or movement of the casualty could mean the difference between them making a full recovery or spending the rest of their life in a wheelchair. Clearly if you have a casualty in a remote location with a potential spinal injury who is bleeding heavily, not breathing and has no pulse then whoever is first on the scene is the difference between a "slim chance" and "no chance" but I think most people myself definitely included (even though (or perhaps because), many years ago I did a wilderness medical training course which involved extracting casualties from a wrecked vehicle using improvised spinal boards) with a rudimentary understanding of spinal injuries would (hopefully) be a bit circumspect in approaching and handling any casualty with a potential spinal injury.
My first aid certificates have long since expired (although I am working through the Red Cross First Aid Manual and the Handbook of Expedition & Wilderness Medicine when I get the chance) and I'm a bit frustrated that the (free) workplace first aid course I was planning to do last month didn't come off and I don't like not having up to date skills on this (which probably explains the somewhat exasperated tone of my response to RV - for which I apologise, although the substance remains valid!).
First Aid Training Organisation (FATO) are currently doing basic first aid training courses through Groupon for £35 which is a bit cheaper than the £37.50 plus VAT (if safety boots and helmets etc. are zero rated for VAT then why on earth is first aid training VATable!!!!) that the Red Cross charge for what looks like a similar course. The location and timing of FATO courses are a bit more convenient for me - does anyone have any experience of them - I'd like to do a basic course before working up to a more wilderness/outdoorsy specific course possibly along the lines suggested by Wayne.
http://www.fato.co.uk/syllabus.php
Any thoughts please.
Others have said the importance of training, I can't reiterate the importance of training strongly enough.
You mention tramping, the question there is are you going alone? If you are going alone, that defines what you take with you. No point taking stuff that you can't put on yourself. Can you put a triangular bandage sling on yourself if you needed to? with only one hand because the other one is what you're putting it on?
Then you have to ask yourself what your aim is with you med kit.
Option a: Response for life threatening injuries to keep you alive until help arrives
Option b: Patch up general wear and tear as a result of the tramp.
Option c: Both.
Many small first aid kits aimed at the outdoor market are generally aimed at b. They have plasters, blister plasters, some paracetamol and something to treat insect bites. This is fine if you're expecting the odd blister on your foot, maybe a cut from a thorn, or an annoyingly placed mossie bite. And for most people that is genuinely enough. It's only when you add sharp tools like say, a Knife or an Axe, or Fire to the mix that you have to worry about anything more serious.
Even with something like your pocket knife you can do severe injuries to yourself that require a bit more than your average kit contains. I can vouch for this from first hand experience. Specifically my left hand, and the seeming propensity that I have for using it as a chopping board... A sharp knife (all our knives are sharp right?) can make a very clean, but quite deep cut. This can produce a lot of blood. This is where you want a proper dressing.
This is why my first aid kit that lives in my backpack's hip pocket is basically one large field dressing, some plasters, some blister plasters, and a pot of drugs. It's enough to deal with most every day stuff. If I am going on a trip where I am taking a knife, expecting to play with fire, and perhaps have an axe, I have slightly larger kit which contains a second dressing, burn gel, ducttape, gloves, and the like.
So put simply, get some training in how to use your first aid kit, then think about the hazards and risk you expect to expose yourself too, and tailor your kit accordingly. There is no one solution that suits all situations. Be prepared to add/remove stuff as your needs change.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.
J
Yep this is exactly what I mean. Good training will emphasize the assessment and analysis of the situation as the most important part of the first response. LOOK, LISTEN, THINK then Act.
this could make a great outing for a few days with training, I'm due to renew my first responder training, and would definitely love extra training from mountain rescue (and other outdoor) professionals, doing it under the stars in a forest would be great... wonder if it would be practical to organize? (or would health & saftey mean the professionals cant get out into the woods? i know the police are often scared (hindered by H&S) of a forest at night lol)
scarfell: ask some other active Search & Rescue people where and when they got the training that they have.
At the same time, I want to thank you for your service. I have seen the toll it takes on our locals.
Here in BC, the mountain SAR people have to train in the mountains, like 5,000' or more.
You gotta be there, digging snow pits in avalanche country, to interpret snow layering risks.
Such snow clinics are held regularly for the sled-head (aka snowmobile) crowds.
They used to be a really careless, happy-go-lucky crowd that believed that they would never get killed.
That's all changed after a series of real killer winters. Avalungs, beacons, probe search training over and over again training sessions
even here in McBride for the tourists. It isn't enough. They still die, misadventure mostly, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Who dies? The BC Gov't Coroner's Service has a profile:
The injured/ deceased will be male. Between the ages of 25 and 50 yrs old. From Alberta (the next Canadian province to the east of Britsh Columbia.)
At the same time, I want to thank you for your service. I have seen the toll it takes on our locals.
Here in BC, the mountain SAR people have to train in the mountains, like 5,000' or more.
You gotta be there, digging snow pits in avalanche country, to interpret snow layering risks.
Such snow clinics are held regularly for the sled-head (aka snowmobile) crowds.
They used to be a really careless, happy-go-lucky crowd that believed that they would never get killed.
That's all changed after a series of real killer winters. Avalungs, beacons, probe search training over and over again training sessions
even here in McBride for the tourists. It isn't enough. They still die, misadventure mostly, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Who dies? The BC Gov't Coroner's Service has a profile:
The injured/ deceased will be male. Between the ages of 25 and 50 yrs old. From Alberta (the next Canadian province to the east of Britsh Columbia.)
did a little digging and found a more extensive course run by ex military in woodland, looks interesting
I trained on my own initiative, i'm not involved with military or paramedics etc, cant take any credit for their work! after a couple of scary situations made me realize my "first aid for work" training wasn't upto scratch, and shifting world dynamics, i decided I needed to be more useful; as you say first responders have a tough job in the worst of situations, would prefer to be useful rather than another person for them to worry about; hopefully that day never comes.
the training in BC sounds intense, haven't yet encountered conditions like that (our highest mountain isnt even that high lol), something I'd like to do tho one day
Don't rush to dismiss UK mountains, IIRC the old school mountaineers of the Bonington, Haston, Scott era used to joke that 8000m peaks in the Himalayas were ideal training for the "real thing" - Scottish mountains in winter!
I am going tramping with a larger group with several people trained in first aid. I have also learnt the basics of first aid. We are asked to have our own kit to use for minor injuries or in case we get separated from the group, as well as for further training in first aid. What I was wondering if anything on the two lists was the same.
Like I thought the crepe bandage from one list might be the same as the elastic bandage from the other.
Like I thought the crepe bandage from one list might be the same as the elastic bandage from the other.
I would also suggest carrying a Solar blanket, 1 or 2 300mg Aspirin tablets, Surgical tape is very handy, and possibly a bottle of oil of cloves.
Some Diocalm tablets might be handy to.
Some Diocalm tablets might be handy to.
Last edited:
As suggested previously, the mismatch between the contents of your "larger first aid kit" and the recommended FAK for hiking/tramping is that it designed for a workplace to fulfil the legal obligation to have a basic FAK which will be used by people who may or may not have any first aid training or common sense. Its purpose will be to deal with minor cuts, grazes and burns and for anything else, the casualty will be sent to their doctor's surgery or A&E at the hospital. I do H&S training and audit work for a charity which has shops on many UK high streets and IME apart from bandaids, almost nothing ever gets used from these FAKs.
Lifesystems offer range of FAKs for different activities and levels of responsibility;
https://www.lifesystems.co.uk/products/first-aid-kits
It might be worth looking at the contents of these and tailoring your own kit depending on what you are likely to be doing and how far away help is likely to be.
In addition to fixing kit, a small roll of decent quality duct/gaffa tape or a length wrapped around an old credit card can be used for a variety of first aid purposes (holding dressings or splints in place, strapping sprained limbs, etc etc) and IMHO is worth its place in any FAK particularly for anyone too hamfisted to tie decent bandages or are trying to patch themselves up one handed.
Compeed type blister patches (if necessary held in place by a length of duct tape!) can make the difference between an enjoyable trip or a painful hobble or worse and even if you have blister proof feet, your companions may not and if they slow down or stop then you will have to aswell. A couple of weeks ago a friend I was walking with got a blister 10 miles into a 20 mile hike and was slowing down badly - a Compeed from my FAK had him going again and was still keeping him pain free for another 12 miles the next day.
Good luck with your trip and let us know how you get on.
Aye Up All,
I'm assuming that 'tramping' in the OP includes 'bush-crafting' in some way, shape or form, so -
How very interesting that with the exception of Leshy no one has mentioned much about first aid items regarding eye injuries (I will stand corrected if Ive missed others).
When you consider that this is a bush-craft site and think about the nature of both the environment that we are active in and the type of activities that we pursue, that is quite surprising. (Or are we all wearing safety glasses every time we bushcraft or just plain lucky so far........!)
Aside from physical injury i.e. grit blown into the eyes; walking into a low hanging branch; hit by a flying wood chip; splattered by a coal spark or (dare I say?) frying liquid etc, the eyes are one of the fastest routes for infection into the body.
Ive seen physical eye injuries (and suffered some of them myself) from the incidents mentioned above but just as often infection from a brush across the eyes from a branch where no obvious physical injury has taken place, as well as where an eye has been wiped with the back of a dirty hand or glove. (The infection severity usually manifests quite a while after the cause possibly because it is shrugged off (and hand wiped!) instead of being first-aid addressed straight away).
And not forgetting the effect of just the wind when youve walked or observed face-into it for a protracted period. Or that old Brian Ferry cover, when youve sat too close for too long to a not-quite-efficient fire.
Ive posted before that Ive long considered my water bottle (and other non-obvious items) a part of my First Aid Kit think burns, open wounds, muck-in-the eye etc and as a doctor once said to me
The solution to pollution is dilution is what informs that practice.
So - eye bath; eye wash; eye spray; antiseptic eye drops; eye dressing; eye patch (pirates!) are all included in even my most basic nip-out-local FAK. (Oh yes and safety specs!).
Pirates eye-patch? you might be thinking - oh yes.
The next time that you see someone walk into an A&E with an eye injury, note where at least one of their hands is cupping the injured eye of course.
Consider an eye injury out in the sticks with the potential for even a short walk-out to further assistance (over gnarly terrain?) wouldnt you rather have both hands/arms available for balance? Aaaarh, too roight Jim laaad! (Think Cornish accent).
Incidentally, Ive noticed that where some people are concerned, especially youngsters - the eye spray(s) (sprayed onto the eye-lid) are often accepted more readily as a way of irrigating muck out than laying them on their side and pouring a water bottle over the eye or getting them to open the eye in an eye bath and throw their head back and forth.
Just saying like.
I'm assuming that 'tramping' in the OP includes 'bush-crafting' in some way, shape or form, so -
How very interesting that with the exception of Leshy no one has mentioned much about first aid items regarding eye injuries (I will stand corrected if Ive missed others).
When you consider that this is a bush-craft site and think about the nature of both the environment that we are active in and the type of activities that we pursue, that is quite surprising. (Or are we all wearing safety glasses every time we bushcraft or just plain lucky so far........!)
Aside from physical injury i.e. grit blown into the eyes; walking into a low hanging branch; hit by a flying wood chip; splattered by a coal spark or (dare I say?) frying liquid etc, the eyes are one of the fastest routes for infection into the body.
Ive seen physical eye injuries (and suffered some of them myself) from the incidents mentioned above but just as often infection from a brush across the eyes from a branch where no obvious physical injury has taken place, as well as where an eye has been wiped with the back of a dirty hand or glove. (The infection severity usually manifests quite a while after the cause possibly because it is shrugged off (and hand wiped!) instead of being first-aid addressed straight away).
And not forgetting the effect of just the wind when youve walked or observed face-into it for a protracted period. Or that old Brian Ferry cover, when youve sat too close for too long to a not-quite-efficient fire.
Ive posted before that Ive long considered my water bottle (and other non-obvious items) a part of my First Aid Kit think burns, open wounds, muck-in-the eye etc and as a doctor once said to me
The solution to pollution is dilution is what informs that practice.
So - eye bath; eye wash; eye spray; antiseptic eye drops; eye dressing; eye patch (pirates!) are all included in even my most basic nip-out-local FAK. (Oh yes and safety specs!).
Pirates eye-patch? you might be thinking - oh yes.
The next time that you see someone walk into an A&E with an eye injury, note where at least one of their hands is cupping the injured eye of course.
Consider an eye injury out in the sticks with the potential for even a short walk-out to further assistance (over gnarly terrain?) wouldnt you rather have both hands/arms available for balance? Aaaarh, too roight Jim laaad! (Think Cornish accent).
Incidentally, Ive noticed that where some people are concerned, especially youngsters - the eye spray(s) (sprayed onto the eye-lid) are often accepted more readily as a way of irrigating muck out than laying them on their side and pouring a water bottle over the eye or getting them to open the eye in an eye bath and throw their head back and forth.
Just saying like.
Aldi Special Buy this week is a 100 piece "car" FAK for £9.99.
https://www.aldi.co.uk/car-medical-kit-100-piece/p/073867095684500
Seems to include eye stuff.
Looks good value in its own right or to cannibalise for a personalised EDC kit.
https://www.aldi.co.uk/car-medical-kit-100-piece/p/073867095684500
Seems to include eye stuff.
Looks good value in its own right or to cannibalise for a personalised EDC kit.
Some good advice and information on this thread.
Carry out a risk assessment pertaining to the activities that you'll be engaging in and carry items accordingly i.e. think of the area you're going to and activities you'll be doing and try and visualise any injuries you're likely to suffer. No point in carrying loads of items you're unlikely to need, or haven't had training in.
Just my tuppence worth 🖒
Cheers,
Allan
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Carry out a risk assessment pertaining to the activities that you'll be engaging in and carry items accordingly i.e. think of the area you're going to and activities you'll be doing and try and visualise any injuries you're likely to suffer. No point in carrying loads of items you're unlikely to need, or haven't had training in.
Just my tuppence worth 🖒
Cheers,
Allan
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Similar threads
