Fire steel from old files.

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Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
990
12
59
South Northants
I picked up a few old old files at a car boot sale earlier in the year with the intention of making them into steels for "Flint and Steel" fire-lighting.
The question I have is one of heat treating. I realise that however I make the steels, whether by forging or simple shaping (Stock removal or similar) I will have to anneal the file first to make it soft enough to work without snapping. Once I have the shape I want, will I need to treat the metal again in order for it to work with a flint ? Do I heat it to non-magnetic and quench for hardness or do I leave it annealed. Logic suggests to me that annealed makes the most sense as it will make scraping a sliver off with the flint that much easier (I know it's the steel that burns to create the fire making spark) but I recall something I saw that said fire steels were very hard.
 

TAHAWK

Nomad
Jan 9, 2004
254
2
Ohio, U.S.A.
Longstrider said:
I picked up a few old old files at a car boot sale earlier in the year with the intention of making them into steels for "Flint and Steel" fire-lighting.
The question I have is one of heat treating. I realise that however I make the steels, whether by forging or simple shaping (Stock removal or similar) I will have to anneal the file first to make it soft enough to work without snapping. Once I have the shape I want, will I need to treat the metal again in order for it to work with a flint ? Do I heat it to non-magnetic and quench for hardness or do I leave it annealed. Logic suggests to me that annealed makes the most sense as it will make scraping a sliver off with the flint that much easier (I know it's the steel that burns to create the fire making spark) but I recall something I saw that said fire steels were very hard.

Subject to being correct by my betters, my undertanding has always been that "knife hard" is the standard. Dead soft steel will shave with too little friction to cause the steel to get very hot. I have read copies of old locksmith's manuals (as in musket locks) about hardening the steel to produce good sparks.
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,973
37
51
South Wales Valleys
You need to quench. When you heat the steel to non magnetic it absorbs carbon from the forge... if you leave it to cool naturaly (anneal) you loose the carbon. For a traditional steel you need high carbon steel. Quenching it, ie cooling it down quickly, will keep the carbon in the steel. I have only made a few trad steels and have found a harsh quench (ie water not oil) seems to work better. I believe in one of his books ray mears recomends quenching in water around 60 degrees. Dont know if this is the best method, but it works.

Hope this helps
:)
Ed
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
Now I know what I say here will upset a lot of experienced metal workers, I can hear Jason's teeth grinding from here, but I make and use a lot of fire steels as some of you know.

I forge them at bright red to yellow heat and then for the final quench I heat them to yellow and drop them into cold water.

Yes it makes them brittle but they spark like anything. I have never broken a steel made like this yet and if they are used properly I can't see how anyone would.

Good luck, you can't beat making and using your own steel. better than a fire bow any day.... ;)
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
Yes you can but a smooth side works best so clean it up with an angle grinder after annealing. This is also the time to do any drilling if you need to.

firesteel1.jpg


The steel billet in the center of this one is unforged and it works great.
 

Snufkin

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 13, 2004
2,097
138
53
Norfolk
I just received a firesteel from Firemaker and it sparks like nothing else I've seen. here's a link to another thread where he describes his process for quenching.
 

chrisanson

Nomad
Apr 12, 2006
390
7
60
Dudley
Hello ,
Fire steel is very hard bit it is the carbon content that counts not its “hardness”. I think !!I have made fire steels from old files and they seem to work just the same hard or annealed. I have found that file steel needs to be worked at the top of the heat. IE work quickly and return to the fire as soon as it starts to loose heat. It also helps to heat the anvil to retain heat in the work peace. I hope this helps.
Chris
 

Goose

Need to contact Admin...
Aug 5, 2004
1,797
21
56
Widnes
www.mpowerservices.co.uk
I want to have a go at this, I have made a firesteel out of mild steel bar I heated with a blowtorch, I then dipped it into carbon powder(forget the name but it smelt of cat wee!), I reheated to bloody hot then dropped it into a bucket of water. It worked but seems to be running out of sparks, I know it was the wrong metal really but it was what I had at the time. I beleive I carbonised only the outer bit and as this runs out of carbon I run out of sparks. This is basically my limit of metal work experience, and metal work vocabulary!

Now my question, giving my very limited knowledge of terminology, experience and lack of any specialist equipment, no blowrtorch, forge, smelly cat wee stuff or even big hammers, is this;
How do I turn a file into a firesteel?

I have a couple of old files, which I believe is a good starting point,I tried breaking them,I couldn't, I can't cut them,can I? If I heat it and let it cool slowly(?), will it make them cuttable? If I heat one in a fire,charcoal and a lot of blowing, would I be able to hit it enough to shape it?

So I am not bothered about pretty at the moment, a lump of the file small enough to fit in my pocket would do for now, so anyone able to talk me through the process, so I can make sparks again?
Remember to use simple words/terms like hot or bloody hot, and type slowly! ;)
I will have a go and try and take some pictures as I do it, it could be a useful tutorial for a few people and encourage a few more to have a go. :D
 

QDanT

Settler
Mar 16, 2006
933
5
Yorkshire England
Goose said:
I want to have a go at this, I have made a firesteel out of mild steel bar I heated with a blowtorch, I then dipped it into carbon powder(forget the name but it smelt of cat wee!), I reheated to bloody hot then dropped it into a bucket of water. It worked but seems to be running out of sparks, I know it was the wrong metal really but it was what I had at the time. I beleive I carbonised only the outer bit and as this runs out of carbon I run out of sparks. This is basically my limit of metal work experience, and metal work vocabulary!

Now my question, giving my very limited knowledge of terminology, experience and lack of any specialist equipment, no blowrtorch, forge, smelly cat wee stuff or even big hammers, is this;
How do I turn a file into a firesteel?

I have a couple of old files, which I believe is a good starting point,I tried breaking them,I couldn't, I can't cut them,can I? If I heat it and let it cool slowly(?), will it make them cuttable? If I heat one in a fire,charcoal and a lot of blowing, would I be able to hit it enough to shape it?

So I am not bothered about pretty at the moment, a lump of the file small enough to fit in my pocket would do for now, so anyone able to talk me through the process, so I can make sparks again?
Remember to use simple words/terms like hot or bloody hot, and type slowly! ;)
I will have a go and try and take some pictures as I do it, it could be a useful tutorial for a few people and encourage a few more to have a go. :D


With a few simple instructions posted I'd like to join you in having a go I've seen the wheel hub, gas bottle and fire brick forge links but don't know how to cut the shape out for say a C style steel.
I'll be watching this thread with interest well started by Longstrider cheers Danny
 

billycan

Forager
Jan 21, 2006
240
1
Sussex
I have made quite a few fire steels out of the tines off a hay tedder. I'm not sure how many of you have access to a farm, but the tines are high carbon steel and and you have to replace them regularly as one of the two prongs on each tine nearly always snapps off.

Any way the steel is in the round, and about 10mm in diameter. Its easy to forge flat and wide and bend the ends into a C shape, and heat and quench. etc Its an easy steel that many farmers will have lying around, and the broken ones are still plenty large enough to use for firesteels. Alternatively you could pick up a new one for next to nothing from your local Ag. merchants

Goose- If you want a piece i'll post a length??
 

Ogri the trog

Mod
Mod
Apr 29, 2005
7,182
71
60
Mid Wales UK
Goose,
Posts like yours really make me proud - your intention is to fly in the face of the "loads of gear but no idea" armchair professionals, and actually get on and do something without the full knowledge and endless research that so many of us feel we have to do.
Yes, old files will make good strikers, and you are correct in your assumptions, they will go soft(er) if you heat them up to bloody hot and let them cool slowly - they should get soft enough to cut with a hacksaw though they'll still complain. You can break files by holding them tight in a vice and hitting them hard with a hammer but they tend to snap unpredictably and fly off around the place, so wrapping them in an old cloth makes sense, as does wearing safety goggles.
You should also be able to hit it to shape (posh folk call that forging) while it's hot, you just need something to hit it with, and something to hit it against. A sledge hammer head makes a useable anvil and any hammer can be used to hit it with.
As for your "heating it in a fire, lots of blowing etc etc" yep, thats it - plain charcoal is better than the self lighting stuff, as that is laced with chemicals that might do wierd things to the steel. You could try rigging up a stand to hold an old hair dryer as your "blowing thing" - that would save your lungs, or aim the blast down a length of iron pipe into the heart of the fire (copper pipe can also do wierd stuff to hot iron).
You already have the quenching (dropping it into a bucket of water) sorted to make the steel as hard as you can, so you're well on your way.
Now, I might be pushing you a bit hard here, but if you get a full sized file, snap 3 inches of the tang (handle) end off, you can make a matching set of Knife and Striker. The only bit you do to the knife that you won't have covered by making the striker is to temper the blade after quenching, to regain a little of the toughness of the steel - this is just heating it up a little bit (put it in the oven while your misses is baking a cake or cooking the roast should do it) and letting it cool slowly.
I'd really like to know how you get on with your project, so please keep us informed.
Billycan - thats exactly the same material I used when I started forging knife blades, plenty around here after harvest.

ATB

Ogri the trog

PS Greenpete has some great ideas on his site for primative knife making which I'd recommend everyone to read.
 

rickety-root

Tenderfoot
Dec 25, 2006
50
0
55
leicester
You'll have to excuse me for butting in on your conversation but this topic holds a lot of interest to me, so while you'ra all giving tips and imparting of your experience and knowledge, i thought i might just gleen a bit of info.

I would love to have a go at making my own knife, only something small and simple at first - something along the lines of the Roselli grandfather's knife perhaps - and had heard many on the site talk about recycling old files.

Please can you just clarify: if i heat the file to red hot, perhaps on a charcoal barbeque that has been severely 'wafted' to get the coals extra hot, then let it cools lowly, the file will be soft enough for me to remove the teeth with an angle grinder and then cut down to size.

Then if i heat it again and improvise some kind of forge tools, i can beat it and further shape it, but i need to continually return it to the fire in order to keep it good and hot. Then, once i have achieved the basic profile that I want, on the final heating, I quench the blade in water. Is this correct?

I have also been thinking about doing something similar with an old kitchen knife - can these be reheated and shaped in this way?
Thanks in anticipation of your help.
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
www.angelfire.com
Below are some of my humble thoughts that I wrote up and posted on a Living History forum. Some general info on fire steels (flint strikers), a simple file-to-striker project, scrounged steel types, and how I heat treat my fire steels. I made 650 flint strikers last year, and 500 the year before - with less than 10% of those being that classic C shape. Most were cultural or regional styles from all the time periods they were made/used in - from very early Roman times on up through the Middle Ages, North American fur trade, and up to the trenches of World War I. That's over 2500 years of use for such a simple tool of everyday life! One of these days I'll get this info more organized, and get a little booklet written up - with drawings/pics of specific styles and time periods, forging methods/steps, and heat treating.

I hope these humble ramblings help.
Thanks
Mike Ameling

The biggest problem with so many of the fire steels made today is that they are not heat-treated hard enough. When you try to strike sparks, your flint "digs in" too much - it "grabs" the steel instead of easily chipping out little bits of steel. And the bits it does chip out tend to be larger. The energy you put into chipping out those little bits of steel heats them up enough that the carbon burns - that's the sparks you see. If the bits of steel are too big, they have a hard time getting hot enough to burn - poor sparks or none. So they need to be heat-treated HARD.

But the drawback to a HARD heat-treat is an increase in how brittle they are - more prone to breaking. Some steps can be taken to make the striker less prone to breaking. But a good striker will break if you hit it too hard, or drop it on a rock. And it's Historically Correct - lots of broken strikers show up in archeological digs. You have to view a well made fire steel or flint striker as a "consumable" supply. It should spark well throughout it's whole life - but that life might be anywhere from only a few months up to several generations. The modern view is that you buy a fire steel once, and it should never break or wear out - no matter how they use/abuse it. Well, in the real world, things are a bit different.

Besides strikers not being heat-treated hard enough, the other big problem with many new strikers is that they are made of mild low carbon steel, and then case-hardened. The low carbon steel makes them very tough and hard to break, but they can't be hardened. So then they are "case hardened". Carbon is heated into the surface of the steel. But it only goes into the steel a fraction of an inch. These strikers spark very well when you first get them, but soon wear out. The amount and type of sparks that you get slowly decreases with use - as you wear through that case-hardened layer. They are great in that you almost can't break them - even by throwing them against a stone wall or hitting them with a hammer. But they wear out fast. And frustration grows as the sparks decrease.

A good fire steel should spark well without having to work hard to get those sparks. You should be able to get good sparks from a light glancing hit of steel on flint. You should not have to BANG the two together just to get sparks. Such hard hitting of steel and stone could break a good fire steel.

A good way to view this would be to compare a File and a Knife. Both get heat-treated very hard initially. The file is left that hard, but the knife gets tempered back - slowly heated up a little to make it less brittle but still hold an edge well. A poor striker ends up like that knife blade - too soft to get good sparks out of. A good striker is like that file - hard and easy to get good sparks from.

L3BScout.jpg


An old Boy Scout Flint Striker Project
A good, quick, striker project that you can make yourself is to make one from a scrap of a file - without any heat-treating or forging. Clamp about 3 inches of a worn file in a vise, and hit it with a hammer on the flat side right next to the vise. The part sticking out should snap right off. Drape a rag over it first to control any "shrapnel". Now take that chunk of file and grind the teeth off of one of the narrow edges. Cool it often. If it's getting too hot to hold in your fingers, cool it right away in water. You need to grind off all of the teeth, and get down to solid metal. Also grind a bit of the teeth off of each side along that narrow side. Those teeth interfere with using it as a striker. Now grind off any sharp edges from breaking off your chunk of file - this saves on cut fingers. You now have a pretty good using striker. They work great. This is an old project that a bunch of the Boy Scouts used to do. They ain't pretty, and you have to use a "pinch" grip, but they make a great striker. And they are historically correct. In most archeological digs, when they find a small section of a file, the usually just view it as a broken file. A check of the wear on the narrow edges would quickly show if it was used as a striker. A bunch were.

I hope my humble ramblings have helped clear up some of your questions. Fire steels are a bit of a passion for me. They have an amazing history - over 2500 years of use! And were made in dozens of styles/variations. I make hundreds of them a year, and less than 10% are that classic C shape. Such a simple everyday tool used throughout history from when man first started working iron.

There's lots of little hints, but here are a few.

Use new spring steel if you can. Old steel can have hidden problems in them. Lots of people use garage door springs and hay dumprake teeth to make their fire steels. They work well, but you can find cracks in them that don't show up until you are forging the steel, or after your final quench. I order my HR 1095 carbon steel from Admiral Steel. They will sell small quantities. Be sure to tell them that you are a Knife Maker.

A knife maker gave me one of the best tips I ever got about heat treating and not ending up with a fire steel that would practically break just by looking at it. Thermal Cycle the fire steel before final quenching. After all your forging is done, you heat it up to critical temp (where a magnet will no longer stick to it) and then pull it out of the heat and let it air-cool till you see no color. Next put it back in and do this heat/air-cool cycle two more times. Then heat it back up to critical and quench. This Thermal Cycling relieves the internal stress in the steel from the forging process, and refines the grain structure - making it smaller and more even. When you heat the steel above critical temp, the internal grain structure grows and expands, and then you stress the steel by forging it. Thermal cycling really helps a lot.

I often use new hayrake teeth. I get them from Farm Fleet for around $1.10 each. They are 1/4 inch round stock, and you end up with about 2 1/2 to 3 feet of rod after you unwind and straighten it. These work great for simple C strikers. You can taper each end, and then flatten them, or leave them in the round. Be sure to use a long enough piece to start with. A standard C striker requires around 6 to 7 inches of rod. The farm stores also sell another hayrake spring tooth that is only 1/8 inch round - good for small awls or large fish hooks. And a big double spring tooth that is 3/8 inch in diameter - for planters and chisel plows to help break up the clods. These are the same thickness as the old hay dumprake teeth. You end up with about 7 feet of rod after you unwind and straighten it.

I quench my fire steels completely in one motion. I haven't had much luck with that differential quench - first quenching the striking surface, then a little more, the 1/2 the striker, then finally the whole thing. I usually end up with cracks at the quench line when I do this. So I quench it all at once - in water. Then, if I think I need to, I selectively heat the handle portions up to soften them a little. But I usually only do this if I have some small/thin parts to the handle section.

I hope this helps. This blacksmithing does get "addictive".

yhs
Mike Ameling

p.s. Lawmower blades can work great for strikers. They are usually around 1084 to 1095 carbon steel, or 5160 alloy steel. Just chisel or cut them down to workable sizes.

A few of the dozens of possible styles/shapes of flint strikers made over the centuries.

TinkeringFriday.jpg
 

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