Fire Drill - Help please .... PLEASE!!!!!

[Zodiak]

I have been fiddling around trying to get a fire drill working for the past month using various websites and good old RM DVDs for help, I am getting close but I keep getting stuck at the same point can somebody have alook at what I am doing and make some suggestions please?

My Bow is something springy that I picked up in the woods, I have tried para cord (it wore through), nylon cord (it slipped) and seem to be getting the best results with good old sisal string!

The bearing block is a bit of lilac tree, which seems to be as hard as rock.

I have tried various drills and hearths, I am not sure what wood they are most were gathered in the woods, they are just about hard enough to dent with a thumbnail.

It all starts off very well, I carve a dent start drilling and after 30 seconds I get smoke, brown powder and a matching drill end and dent. The drill is too hot too touch.

I then carve the notch and it all goes wrong, very little dust, very little smoke and it starts to squeek. After a few minutes the drill and hearth both start to go shiney and thats it, no more heat!

Any suggestions more than welcome please!

 

[Ogri the trog]

Zodiak,
I feel for you mate - to be that close but unable to get your deserved ember. I admire your dedication, to keep trying without getting a coal you must have a great desire to learn the skill - you will get there and wonder why you had so much trouble.

It certainly sounds as though its the shape of the notch that is causing the grief, try changeing it to make sure that the dust will come away from the hot area, down to the bottom of the notch - an inverted V shape, smooth sided to help the dust fall and wider at the mouth. Some folk carve triangular notches while others use square ones with equal success. Try a shallow notch first to see if that works, if not then try deeper or different shapes until you succeed.

For cord, I use a long boot lace - it wore thin after a few months but was long enough to move the worn section to within the knot and carry on.

Wood combinations, hazel drill and cedar hearth or willow on willow seem to work but there are many other threads with suitable combinations.

30 seconds sounds a bit long ( but I was trying for much longer than that before I got the technique) you should be able to get smoke after about ten passes of the bow max - try other combinations as above. Same with the squeeking, it sound like there a bit too much resin in one of your woods

All the best mate

Ogri the trog

 

[leon-1]

Zodiak, clean any of the polished carbon surfaces by scraping them with a knife.

Increase either the speed you are drilling at or increase the pressure applied to the bearing block.

The colour of the fibres coming off wants to be black as you can get, they will be quite fine as well.

If you wish to increase the friction you can add a little dirt or sand to the indentation that you have drilled before resuming drilling.

Use a waxy leaf in the bearing block between it and the drill just as lubrication.

Hazel drills normally work pretty well on most things (apart from the really hard woods).

The notch should only go 2/3's of the way in from the edge of the drilled circle.

Sets totally made from sycamore or Ivy work very well when seasoned.

If your bow flexes when you drill get rid of it for one that is more rigid. Use something along the lines of climbing accessory cord (spectra or dyneema I can never remember which), it is far stronger and a lot more abrasion resistant than para cord.

I hope that something from this helps.

 

[Biddlesby]

Perhaps the notch is too large? I agree with leon that a stiffer bow should be used. Is it bent or straight? I find the latter easier.

As for wood combinations I find hazel on poplar the easiest, but if you get a good amount of smoke in 30 seconds it sounds like the wood combination you are using is fine.

I hope you get the ember soon - you will get it!

 

[JonnyP]

Problem I used to have was the top of the drill was not pointy enough and causing too much friction. Make sure you have a good point there to reduce the friction. I found using a pebble with a dent in it is good for a bearing block as there is no wearing away of it. You need the friction at the bottom of the drill not at the top..........

 

[jasons]

I fount looking at my technique and makeing some changes helped me ie useing the ful length of the bow and locking my hand against shin the list goes on and on .if you no some one in your area who can help .you can only pick so much up from books and dvds keep at it.

 

[Zodiak]

Thanks for all the advice and argghh so close

I have tried a new straight bow, started on the other side of the hearth with a new hole and a tiny groove, shoved half a holly leaf inside the bearing block and started to get plumes of smoke when I realised I was being watched!

We looked after a hedgehog last winter and now my daughter feeds him our dinner scraps each night. It was starting to get dark so he was waiting for me to move so that he could get his breakfast!

I came inside on to the kitchen floor much to the amusement of SWMBO, it just started to smell right and bang the string snapped, now I can't find anything else in the house to use.... arghh.. right carry on again tomorrow.

Ohh my back hurts !!!

 

[stuart f]

Keep at it mate your nearly there, as Leon said try to get some climbers accessory cord,it's tough stuff and won't stretch like other cords can. A wee tip if your struggling, try getting someone to help with the bowing,i'e you assume the position and the other person takes the other end of the bow. With the other person helping with the bowing action it means you get more speed, and also it allows you to add more downward pressure without you worrying about doing both,as compaired to when your doing it solo. This is the route i took(used the missus,i knew she would come in handy sometime )and it was'nt long after that, that i managed to get an ember on my own.

Ps you will forget all about the back pain once you get that ember

good luck.

 

[Longstrider]

Keep at it Zodiac, that first coal will shine like GOLD when you get it, and it will be worth ten times as much to you.
Have your bow as stiff as possible. I went wrong on that point for literally years. The term "bow" is a misleading one really. If it flexes it will lead to the cord becoming slack on your push-stroke and the cord will slip on the drill. If this happens, super-fibres like Spectra and Dyneema will snap like cotton. These materials have incredible strength but also very low melting points. I've used Spectra line for pike fishing for years and it's great stuff, being far far stronger than nylon monofilament for the same diameter. I've also used a lot of Dyneema lines for my power kites and again, the stuff is incredibly strong with virtually no stretch but if you get crossed lines with another kite it burns through in an instant. Good old para cord or climbers accessory cord is the best bet in my reckoning.
Make certain that your drill and hearth are REALLY dry. I know it sounds obvious, but there's dry and there's DRY. A few days in the airing cupboard should do it once the wood feels completely dry to the touch.
Hazel drill on an Ivy hearth seems the easiest combination for me to get a coal with but there are so many usable combinations it's silly to try and list them all. Just get the wood as dry as you possibly can and don't use anything resinous (at least to begin with) and it WILL come. After you've done it once you will wonder what all the fuss was as it will come so easily the second and successive times.

 

[jasons]

theres a lot of bushcrafters in kent why dont you get to gether and have some one on one bow drill workshop its helped me

 

[Zodiak]

Still no sucess but getting better!

I have discovered that if I start a new hole in the hearth then I can get smoke in about 10 seconds now and loads of black dust, so much so that my wife could smell it from upstairs. However if I stop, say to cut the groove and start drilling again then the hole just gets shiney and it squeeks like , even if I scrape it out.

This has happened with 4 different drills on 2 differrent hearths and all combinations there of. All of this wood is dry, it was collected one afternoon last week in one woods in Essex, and it struck me just now that even though I gathered over quite an area, and the drills are definatley differrent that the hearth wood might be from the same type of tree

This brings me to a fundmental problem I am very good at identifying trees, and can list them all:

Oak (its got American Army Major Insignia for leaves)
Leynadi (its green and furry)
Silver Birch (Its silver)
Holly (Looks like the ones on the christmas cards)
Big Ones
Little Ones
Dead Ones.

Occasionaly you get extra clues like fruit hanging down, spikey things which makes it one of the chestnuts or even those little helicopters which make it another one (Sycamore?) apart from that its all brown to me and they look nothing like the pictures in my book of british wildlife. Maybe my form dyslexia is spreading

So... time to stop off at some woodland (In Kent) on the way home and collect some more wood, this from definatley differrent trees.

And yes my back is killing me (trapped nerve) and so is my knee from the large scab that is covering the largish cut (size of a yale key) that I got last week jumping between two rafts and missing but I am not giving up!!

 

[OutBackP]

:You_Rock_ Sounds like your having fun

 

[falling rain]

Try carving the tip of the drill again to put 'ridges' on it after you've burnt in the hole and carved your notch in the hearth, before you start drilling again. This increases the friction and goes a way to producing the dust you're after. When you carve the ridges it can be a little difficult to get the drill spinning again so only a gentle pressure on the bearing block and a relaxed action to start with until the drill and hearth have married up nicely again, and then increase your speed and get into a nice rythm. When it's smoking furiously ................keep going a bit longer. I usually do at least 30 extra strokes of the bow after the smoke is billowing up which pretty much guarantees an ember. Good luck and don't get disheartened everyone goes through it

 

[JonnyP]

Have a look at this method, it may help http://www.primitiveways.com/e-fire.html

 

[palmnut]

The Egyptian bow certainly worked for me! An ember on my second time of trying! Couldn't believe it. Seems to reduce W&T on the cord too as it doesn't have to be mega-tight.

I'm using an Elder drill (ID clue: look for the berries that are starting to colour up now) and an Ivy hearth (thick trunk, seasoned for a year or two - originally intended for wood-turning).

Now if only I could even get a wisp of smoke from the hand drill Having watched the 17 year old work-experience student on the Woodlore Intro course get a flame in about 1 minute 30 seconds from a standing start using a hand drill, I've just got to crack that technique before I die.

You may notice that this is my first post BTW, so hello everybody.

 

[Zodiak]

OK so this is a REAL newbie question but looking at all those pictures the bow only seems to be around .3-.5m, mine is well over 1m is that too long? :sadwavey:

SWMBO is back from a few days with her mother, I knew that she was back when the phone went and I heard a voice saying "I have no idea what you have been doing but somthing is burning in the kitchen, I think we have ants (the fine black dust) and there a little bits of wood down by the TV (damn I though I had hoovered up where I was carving in the living room last night)"

 

[stuart f]

OK so this is a REAL newbie question but looking at all those pictures the bow only seems to be around .3-.5m, mine is well over 1m is that too long? :sadwavey:

SWMBO is back from a few days with her mother, I knew that she was back when the phone went and I heard a voice saying "I have no idea what you have been doing but somthing is burning in the kitchen, I think we have ants (the fine black dust) and there a little bits of wood down by the TV (damn I though I had hoovered up where I was carving in the living room last night)"

Hi Zodiak, i think you may get on better with a smaller bow, i tried a large bow when i first started but struggled,now i use a bow thats finger tip to elbow in length and it works a treat. Hope this helps

Ps i think you ought to get a shed to practice in if you want to stay on the right side of your wife

 

[kb31]

a collins gem pocket book how to i.d trees would be useful but then again don't cut "green wood down" it will never work. where woodland meet roads farmers etc cut it back- hazal n that it sould be chris crossed on the deck take off the top not the ones not touching the ground they just get left so no one will miss it don't worry i kicked a fireset up n down backyard for about 3 week you will get there ...karl (if you smoke give your lighter to someone tell them not to give it back til you do it and you soon will! don't start kids don't ever start!!

 

[Ben Trout]

I've been playing for a couple of weeks and made up sets for our Scouts. Tried with the Scouts last night. All going well, a few pairs had some good smoke then there a great clap of thunder it starting bucketting down. SOOO CLOSE!

Something that maybe of use, I cut a load of bows and then paired up Scouts of similar heights. I issued bows to match a comfortable length stroke and then got them to use the full length of the bow. Size your bow to comfortable stroke. I'm 6 foot nothing and good length bow is about 450mm.

I've generated two good embers and snuffed them out trying to get them onto the tinder. I'll get a bit more organised when I try again. Egyptian bow looks like a good scheme, thanks for that.

 

[Zodiak]

Soo close it almost hurts

Smaller bow, new hearth wood and almost instant smoke, litterally 10 strokes and it was billowing out.... the handle!!!!! which then started to split

This was 2AM in the kitchen again (my Son and I had just finished watching a DVD) so after a late start, some domestic restocking this morning (shopping with SWMBO) its back round to the woods armed with "A complete guide to britsh wildlife", my saw and THIS time I will take my glasses so I can actually read the book: