Fire by flints alone.

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Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
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South Northants
Have any of you skilled pyromaniacs out there actually ever make fire with the sparks that can be seen if you rub a couple of flints together?

I tried to do it I don't know how many times when I was a kid but have not tried it myself since learning about char-cloth. The sparks you get from flint-on-flint tend to be very small, short lived and probably not incredibly hot, but they are sparks, so I'm wondering if they are usable ?

I might have to have a go at making some super-duper fine char cloth to see if I can get one of these little sparks to catch.. Char-loo-roll anyone ?
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
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South Wales Valleys
I think the sparks are a little too cold. Iron pyrites have cool sparks, but you can get them to catch on char cloth, but the sparks from flint on flint are even cooler. You may have to use an easier catching tinder if you want to get it to work.

If you boil up some rotting vegetable matter and filter it, the solution you are left with will contain saltpetre (potassium nitrate). Soaking your char cloth in this will help with easier ignition. You maay find you will have to evaporate some of the water off to get your solution more concentrated before you soak your char cloth.

Be warned though, salpetre is one of the main constituants of black power and is explosive.... but the amount ou will get on the cloth through soaking in a solution will not be enough to make it go bang... just enough to get it burning with cooler sparks. On a side note, saltpetre is the chemical they use to keep incense stick burning so they dont go out.

:)
Ed
 

Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
990
12
59
South Northants
Cheers Ed. I had not thought of adding a chemical to the char cloth. We used to make "fuses" by soaking string that was made of tightly twisted brown paper in a solutiion of Potassium Permangenate when I was a kid. Not so sure I want my char cloth burning away at that sort of rate though. It's basically blue touch-paper like you get on a firework. :)
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
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London
I have never seen sparks when banging flints together. But then I have always done it in bright daylight. So, if I go into the dark I will see sparks? Wow.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,992
4,645
S. Lanarkshire
If two pieces of quartz are pressed together very hard they will give off a flash of light called triboluminesence. Flint kind of does this too. I have heard of a flint spark but never actually ever seen it, and wondered if it was the same effect as from the quartz.

Cheers,
Toddy
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
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London
I thought I would try this knocking flints together this evening. I struck with a blunt flint onto a sharp edge. I got little sparks with ease. Can't think why I haven't tried doing this in the dark before! I then looked up triboluminescence. Seems it is a phenomenon INSIDE quartz. Well that wasn't what I got. I got little orange sparks flying off in various directions or sitting on the impact spot for a moment. Far duller than the flint and steel spark I then tried out and they never travelled more than a centimetre or so, but definitely a spark.

My take on this is that just like flint and steel the impact is splitting off tiny, very hot fragments. But unlike the flint and steel the fragments are not igniting but simply cooling off.

Impressive. However, I have no idea how to make them ignite something. It would have to be something real close to the flint edge and microscopic I should think for the heat to transfer from a rapidly cooling tiny fragment of rock, Could you paint the flint edge with something combustable? Could you do it in a combustible gas mixture? I briefly tried striking the sparks through come char cloth but got no joy after a few hits and lost my char cloth. Others might have more luck?
 

KIMBOKO

Nomad
Nov 26, 2003
379
1
Suffolk
I have not been able to catch one of these sparks either. But I have read of an ancient writer who claims of a certain tribe that they lit fires with two flints. I can't Remember the writer or the tribe. I will try to remember.
 

rich59

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Aug 28, 2005
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KIMBOKO said:
I have not been able to catch one of these sparks either. But I have read of an ancient writer who claims of a certain tribe that they lit fires with two flints. I can't Remember the writer or the tribe. I will try to remember.
I came across this article on a page already deleted but in Google cache:-

<<Some peoples, the Fuegians especially, procure fire by striking together two flints. In the Aleutian Islands these latter, having been previously covered with sulphur, are struck against each other over a small saucer of dry moss dusted with sulphur. The Eskimos employ for this purpose pieces of quartz and iron pyrites. In the Sandwich Islands recourse is had to a process that necessitates much skill. There is arranged in a large dry leaf, rolled into the shape of a funnel, a certain number of flints along with some easily combustible twigs. On attaching the leaf to the end of a rod, and revolving the latter rapidly, it is said that fire is produced. Processes that are based upon the clashing of two flint stones must be much more inconvenient of application than we would be led to suppose. We are, in fact, accustomed to see the flint and steel used, but here the spark is a bit of iron raised to red heat through a mechanical action that has violently detached it from the mass under the form of a small sliver. In the case of two flint stones, the light that is perceived is of an entirely different nature, for it is a phosphorescence which is produced, even by a very slight friction, not only between two pieces of silex, but also between two pieces of quartz, porcelain, or sugar; and that the heat developed is but slight is proved by the fact that the phenomenon may occur under water. Of course, fragments of stones may be raised to a red heat through percussion; but this does not often occur, so for this reason the Fuegians keep up with the greatest care the fires that they have lighted, and it is this very peculiarity that has given their country a characteristic aspect and caused it to be named Terra del Fuego (land of fire). When they change their residence they always carry with them a few lighted embers which rest in their canoes upon a bed of pebbles or ashes. The same thing occurs, moreover, among the Australians and Tasmanians, who employ, as we have just seen, the rotary process. There are women among these peoples whose special mission it is to carry day and night lighted torches or cones made of a substance that burns slowly like punk. When, through accident, the fire happens to get extinguished in a tribe, these people often prefer to undertake a long voyage in order to obtain another light from a neighboring tribe rather than have recourse to a direct production of it. >>

Now where can I get some naturally occuring sulphur?
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,807
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Wiltshire
The fuegians used iron pyrities and flint and travelled long distances to get it (or paid high prices)

According to E Bridges `Uttermost part of the world.`
 

KIMBOKO

Nomad
Nov 26, 2003
379
1
Suffolk
I believe that there are very pure naturally occuring sulphur deposits. But just to try you could buy sulphur as a Sulphur candle in a hardware/garden shop. Its used to fumigate greenhouses.
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
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London
Hmm. Pentlandite - A fair content of iron and nickel. the sparks might actually be burning metal?

So the two flints challenge would need your tinder (true tinder fungus) really well placed to stand a chance at this. I will have a go.
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
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London
I have been bashing stones together for an hour or more. It is becoming really easy to get a whole load of sparks per hit. However, they are very short lived and rarely travel even a millimetre. I guess a spark that can jump a distance is a real must.

I have a theory that you need your tinder in a groove in a flat stone and strike across it. The image I have in my mind is this.

Viking_Age_West_Scandinavian_Fire-steel_plus_Striking_Stone_With_Groove.gif


So, did the Vikings put their char cloth in the groove and strike over the flat surface? Is it possible to get fire this way with a stone instead of the steel, especially if you use tinder fungus?
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
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London
Grooveski said:
May be no use whatsoever ;) but this thread reminded me of Og, a character in books my grandad had lying on his shelves from when he was a kid.

Chapter 11 of "Son of Fire" has another method that might be worth a shot. :)
http://www.trussel.com/prehist/crump/ogs.htm#T213
Thanks for that. The trouble with fiction is that a lot of it is.. well.. fiction. Having said that there are some ideas here. "You want a bigger spark then get a bigger impact"

A couple of years ago I worked out how to get sparks off ordinary steel - get a bigger rock!

Now, I have crashed rocks together with force before (in order to get some sharp edge pieces for flint and steel) but I have dutifully kept my eyes closed at impact and done it in broad daylight. Looks like rock smashing in the dark with safety glasses coming up as the next experiment.
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
25
65
London
Well, I did some small rock bashing today, putting a lot of speed and energy into it and protecting the eyes. Result? No shower of sparks, just a scattering of rock splinters. The only way I got any sparks was if I struck down onto a sloping ridge of flint. Again, they did not travel. I have an image in my mind of a multi layered flint and tinder sandwich that is struck obliquely by another flint. This would be with the hope that the intimate proximity of the tinder might allow a spark to ignite it. However, I probably need a large piece of flint to create flakes and currently I only have small flints.

Another day another experiment.
 

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