Fabric fire retardants

[Toddy]

Just found this link on another forum, whose members also have issues with clothing and kit near open fires.
Postage is a touch expensive though

http://www.mslfirecheck.com/ordering.htm

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[nooky]

Hello Toddy there is no link attached.
Andrew.

 

[Toddy]

oops, there is now

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[JFW]

Toddy,

bought the 750 ml spray bottle from my local surplus shop for 2 quid last week, he only had a couple left. If anyone is interested I will pop in tomorrow and by any that are left. Let me know.

Cheers

JFW

 

[Toddy]

Toddy,

bought the 750 ml spray bottle from my local surplus shop for 2 quid last week, he only had a couple left. If anyone is interested I will pop in tomorrow and by any that are left. Let me know.

Cheers

JFW

Excellent! Yes please....I'd happily take all you can get at that price..... but I will share

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[scruff]

Hmmm interesting...

....quite a strong point, like most of these 'spray on' treatments, regarding its durability is raised on page two of the testing:

"This fabric is treated with a nonwashable flame agent and has not been subjected to any cleansing procedure prior to testing. Therfore, as specified in clause 4.1 the fabric must be clearly labelled: IF WETTED IN ANY WAY IT IS ESSENTIAL TO RE-TREAT THE FABRIC TO MEET FLAMMABILITY REQUIREMENTS"

In a bushcrafty situation this stuff may not actually be that great then 'cos it will get washed off far too easily. You'll end up needing to take the spray with you!

Also the tests regarding the fire retardancy of clothing fabrics only envolve the specimen being exposed to the flame for 15 seconds.

"The results may not apply to situations where there is....prolonged exposure to large sources of intense heat as in a conflagration"

This conflagration could be your camp fire.

Just a little food for thought.

 

[mark a.]

Hmmm, yes, if it gets washed off in a bit of rain then it's not going to be ideal.

Any idea as to whether it's ok with things like Goretex, Ventile etc, or would it ruin their properties? I'd imagine it would be good for tarps etc (assuming the water issue is fine).

 

[scruff]

With natural fibres I'd say its pretty pointless as they are inherently fire retardant (to some degree - wool being more so than cotton). I'd certainly avoid using it on Ventile as it could quite possibly mess up its weatherproof properties.

Its probably a similar story for Gortex in that it may clog the pores or such like. If it was applied it may reduce the breathability of the fabric and this could cause condensation in your jacket and....you'd be back to square one

Condensation build up may also be worth considering on tarps. It may be fine over night but come morning it will need re-spraying. If your tarp is going to be closer than comfort to an naked flame better to have a natural fibre, canvas or cotton, than a man made one.

IMHO its a lot more likely a tarp will get damp than it will catch fire, especially here in Blighty. I'd just advocate keeping as minimal fire as neccesary and keeping your kit as far away as possible.

Prevention is better practice than proofing

 

[Toddy]

Normally I would agree with you, but fleece is a pain next to a fire as can be cotton. I actually want it to fire retard cloth that we're using for the walls of a yurt, and for the long skirts that a re-enacting friends' young daughters wear.
If the fire retardant is given time to be propely absorbed by cloth it doesn't washout all that easily anyway in my experience.

I think this buy is one of those that if you are aware of what you're buying, and of the uses you put it to, then it can be a good thing. Not everybody's cuppa, but I would like some at a reasonable price.

Cheers,
Toddy....who normally uses an alum wash for this.

 

[mark a.]

I was just about to post that I'm sure Toddy has some good use for it... and I was right! Those sound like places where the stuff would really come in handy.

 

[scruff]

Well your quite right.

Do you mean fleece as in a sheep of fleece as in the man made material?

Thankfully natural fibres don't go molten like alot of man made clothing fibres though, they just singe at the point of contact, and more often than not smoulder out (ie. non-progressive smouldering).

I think that this fire retardant will wash out easily as per the BTTG's findings. IMHO I think for it would be better for clothing than on the Yurt though as the 'moisture risk' is not as high.

As someone who has studied in this field I wanted to make people aware of the durability of the treatment, its limits and that of the testing....so they don't end up going >poof!<

 

[Burt]

With regards to absolute fire retardant properties of fabric, I have worn a pure wool coverall and walked slowly through several petrol missiles, it's hot....! you would only want to spend seconds in the flames and will need to keep moving constantly to avoid the flames burning you (not necessarily the suit). These will only have a limited life obviously depending on exposure.

The second is a relatively new man made fabric with Kermel(trademarked). This is the current issue for police, fire and industry workwear and is excellent. It is usually worn as an outer skin with thermal type flame retardant inners. You still want to keep moving through the flame or you will burn from the inside first. This stuff isn't particularly cheap. Google search for Kermel Fabric.

I have no idea where to get the woolen coveralls from but they are basically the same material as the old British OD shirts and I presume similar to Swannies.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[Longstrider]

My partner works in the theatre where they regularly have to apply fire retardent to various cloths and costumes. They use a product very similar to that shown in Toddy's link, but you don't have to find a "specialist" supplier to find the stuff. It can be found at most fabric shops, especially if they do curtain material, you might even find it at somewhere like Debenhams or John Lewis.
Having chatted to her about this, she is convinced that a shower of rain will have very little effect on the properties of the retardent, but a trip through the washing machine would mean that a re-application was needed.

 

[scruff]

With regards to absolute fire retardant properties of fabric, I have worn a pure wool coverall and walked slowly through several petrol missiles, it's hot....! you would only want to spend seconds in the flames and will need to keep moving constantly to avoid the flames burning you (not necessarily the suit). These will only have a limited life obviously depending on exposure.

The second is a relatively new man made fabric with Kermel(trademarked). This is the current issue for police, fire and industry workwear and is excellent. It is usually worn as an outer skin with thermal type flame retardant inners. You still want to keep moving through the flame or you will burn from the inside first. This stuff isn't particularly cheap. Google search for Kermel Fabric.

I have no idea where to get the woolen coveralls from but they are basically the same material as the old British OD shirts and I presume similar to Swannies.

Hope this helps you out.

Ah the old fire fighting jackets used to be pure wool I think up until the 80's. It did its job pretty well for years. They are pretty similar to Swannies in that respect although more tightly woven. I've seen all wool Italian Navy Greatcoats that are very similar.

Kermel is good stuff but your getting into the realms of fire specific fabrics. There is as much emphasis put into lifespan of the fabric, through such things as prevention of hardening as a result of flash over, as there is general fire retandancy these days.

I think in terms of this fire retardant spray its best to 'suck it and see' I guess. No doubt it will get a much more thourough testing from bushcrafters than the current legislation requires!!

 

[JFW]

Toddy,

went to the shop today and managed to buy all the stock........ 1 x 750 ml spray bottle, at least you will be able to try it out.
I can probably post it out to you at the weekend, or if you are in the Stirling area I could meet you. Let me know what you want to do.

Cheers

JFW

 

[sandspec]

I use fire retardant regularly in a theatre envinronment. It is easily obtainable from good fabric shops.
Just a thought here....if you fire proof your clothing will this give you a fall sense of security ??
Common sense around open fires is surely a cheaper option than using a fire retardant which would ahve to be very g]regularly used to be effective

 

[scruff]

I use fire retardant regularly in a theatre envinronment. It is easily obtainable from good fabric shops.
Just a thought here....if you fire proof your clothing will this give you a fall sense of security ??
Common sense around open fires is surely a cheaper option than using a fire retardant which would ahve to be very g]regularly used to be effective

Never was a truer work spoken sir.

 

[Toddy]

I do agree; but that said, I still like the extra insurance of those few precious seconds if I ever find I need them.
The fire retardants have a cosmetic purpose too, sparks don't char the surface of wool when it's been treated. This might not seem much to most folks but hand woven, naturally dyed, hand sewn garments are a lot of work, we try to keep them in good condition even though we work in some awful conditions on occasion. It is also written into some of the contracts for risk assessments, much like the theatre I imagine.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[scruff]

I can see where your coming from now I forget that there's no escaping the cursed risk assesment. I can imagine that the frequency of risk is greater than on the stage even, esp. with all those open fires etc.

Totally understand wanting to protect your hard work too. Do you produce clothes on a commercial basis then Toddy?

 

[Toddy]

I make period clothing for heritage centres, museums, a few re-enactors and my colleagues. There's never enough time though, so I don't advertise and I don't go looking for more work. I do use it as part of the barter network though.....it's amazing the deals I can get for hand sewn Viking kirtles, linen ghillie or woollen or goretex bush shirts Hand spun, naturally dyed tablet braid takes too long to be commercially viable but I do make it for friends.

Disclaimer: This isn't an advert, or a for sale, posting just a reply. Too busy.
If anyone is looking for Viking/Anglo Saxon kit may I suggest asking Wayland for help, and there are a lot of good craftsmen on the forum who might reply favourably to a commission for individualised bushshirts, etc.

Cheers,
Toddy