Quite the contrary sir! The OP asked if it was right to continue eating meat, not whether it was right to stop. That is far from a calling to justify vegetarianism, it is the reverse!
Given the above, exactly how black is my pot Mr. Kettle?
Eating Meats.
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Quite the contrary sir! The OP asked if it was right to continue eating meat, not whether it was right to stop. That is far from a calling to justify vegetarianism, it is the reverse!
Given the above, exactly how black is my pot Mr. Kettle?
But those incisors aren't good for meat unless it's cooked.
Our gut isn't long enough to digest uncooked meat properly to obtain the most of the nutritional value.
The calorific and protein intake of a vegetarian diet can easily beat one based on meat, so hard outdoor work isn't a problem whatsoever.
Been there, done that
Fire is just a tool we've evolved to help exploit the defenses of our prey, along with things like hunting weapons, food preservation methods and agricultural implements. We're tool-using omnivores, but omnivores nonetheless. Without tools, we're just slow, weak, uninsulated monkeys who couldn't survive for long.
I wonder if something like arctic exploration would be possible on vegetarian rations. People outdoors in extreme cold develop cravings for fat above all else.
There was a mention recently of the Wintertime craving of heavy carbohydrates; I wonder if that's part of the extreme cold craving for fat ? and is it fat ? or is it the heavy comfort food......like the smell of hot olive oil and potatoes ?
The links I mentioned make a lot of sense when discussing our teeth.
We are neither, 'fish nor fowl' so to speak, and even for omnivores we lack the larger grinding teeth and the sharp tearing teeth of the other apes such as chimps.
Cooking food, certainly from the archaeological record, is as much a fundamental part of humanity's skill set as making tools, clothing and speech.
cheers,
Toddy
The links I mentioned make a lot of sense when discussing our teeth.
We are neither, 'fish nor fowl' so to speak, and even for omnivores we lack the larger grinding teeth and the sharp tearing teeth of the other apes such as chimps.
Cooking food, certainly from the archaeological record, is as much a fundamental part of humanity's skill set as making tools, clothing and speech.
cheers,
Toddy
Extremely doubtful when you look at the energy needed in any 24 hour period. Even if you managed to eat something like a two kilo's of butter your body could only process a certain amount of the energy held in the butter. I can't remember the figures but do remember that Mike Stroud talked about this problem in one of his books, basically on something like an Antarctic expedition you are burning off body fuel quicker than you can absorb it regardless of how much you eat so under these extremes of physical exercise you will loose body mass. You don't see many Inuit tucking into quorn burgers now do you.
Well no, but they don't grow mushroom as I recall
Seriously, vegetable fat is just as 'fat' as meat fat in the calories race. .....trust me, I know a lot of fat vegetarians
Thing is though that most humans don't live where vegetables won't grow, *and* we certainly didn't evolve in those extreme conditions.
We are literally the cherry pickers, the ones who chose the best foods, and made tools and strategies to obtain them. Humanity is, despite it's physical frailties, the top predator on the planet..............and that's without teeth like the shark or claws like a lion or the heavy fur of the bear.
cheers,
Toddy
Seriously, vegetable fat is just as 'fat' as meat fat in the calories race. .....trust me, I know a lot of fat vegetarians
Thing is though that most humans don't live where vegetables won't grow, *and* we certainly didn't evolve in those extreme conditions.
We are literally the cherry pickers, the ones who chose the best foods, and made tools and strategies to obtain them. Humanity is, despite it's physical frailties, the top predator on the planet..............and that's without teeth like the shark or claws like a lion or the heavy fur of the bear.
cheers,
Toddy
Scientists try to grow meat in a lab.
Our problems are solved!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=south-carolina-scientist-works-to-g
"I'll have the Alpha ++ with cheese and a large Pepsi, please."
Happy trails...torc
Our problems are solved!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=south-carolina-scientist-works-to-g
"I'll have the Alpha ++ with cheese and a large Pepsi, please."
Happy trails...torc
I like most meats and I have eaten meat and fish that I have hunted dispatched humanely and preped for cooking and finally cooked and eaten myself. Unfortunately my family do not share my opinion that wild duck, rabbbit or fresh wild brown trout are suitable meals. They like fish to from captain birdseye and rabbits and ducks to be cute animals to look at! Best not to mention Bambi!
But on the eating side of things I find that on the occasional time I have a meat free day that I am always hungry and end up snacking late in the evening on cheese sandwiches and oatcakes to try and get rid of the hunger pangs. For me personally to keep feeling happy ie well fed and full of energy I need to have a high fibre high protein diet. Lots of wholegrains brown rice wholegrain pasta etc. If i eat highly processed white bread white rice and pasta I feel bloated and lethargic all the time! No meat means I over eat other things to get rid of my hunger pangs. I have yet to find a veggie meal that leaves me satisfied. From a moral point of view I am an animal and animals quite often eat other animals it is part of the natural order of things.
I disagree with intense factory farming methods but I am realistic and realise in this overcrowded world farming methods must be intensive to produce the vast amount of food required. However I do purchase most of my meat from my local butcher who sources his meat from local farms, There is a board on the wall telling you what farm the cow came from that is currently being sold. And I know from experience that our farmers are pretty good up here in how the rear and look after the beasts. My free range eggs and fish are local. Supermarkets are for tins of beans and fruit, toilet paper etc products that are not produced locally to me.
But on the eating side of things I find that on the occasional time I have a meat free day that I am always hungry and end up snacking late in the evening on cheese sandwiches and oatcakes to try and get rid of the hunger pangs. For me personally to keep feeling happy ie well fed and full of energy I need to have a high fibre high protein diet. Lots of wholegrains brown rice wholegrain pasta etc. If i eat highly processed white bread white rice and pasta I feel bloated and lethargic all the time! No meat means I over eat other things to get rid of my hunger pangs. I have yet to find a veggie meal that leaves me satisfied. From a moral point of view I am an animal and animals quite often eat other animals it is part of the natural order of things.
I disagree with intense factory farming methods but I am realistic and realise in this overcrowded world farming methods must be intensive to produce the vast amount of food required. However I do purchase most of my meat from my local butcher who sources his meat from local farms, There is a board on the wall telling you what farm the cow came from that is currently being sold. And I know from experience that our farmers are pretty good up here in how the rear and look after the beasts. My free range eggs and fish are local. Supermarkets are for tins of beans and fruit, toilet paper etc products that are not produced locally to me.
That is awesome Toddy! I wished the whole quote would fit the criteria of the signature line, it won't so I shortened it.
Thanks,
Gordy
Our gut isn't long enough to digest uncooked food it's true. But the reason the apes have longer guts is to digest the vegetable matter not the meat. Herbivores must digest there food more completely because it has less nutrients per bulk so they developed complex digestive systems to more fully extract those nutrients. The more devoid of food value, the more complex the digestive system (think of the rumanants with multiple stomache chambers). Realisically the "meat" eaten by homonids is most often small bugs and worms that don't require specialized teeth. Not always, as gorillas sometimes hunt monkeys, but usually. However I personally have and do eat raw meat often. I have had no problem with it. No, it's not my normal diet but I do occasionaly get a craving for raw beef or buffalo.
The question though was, "Is it moral to eat meat?" I would have to say that we didn't suddenly become omnivores but evolved that way just as the other homonids. Granted our technological development has allowed us to eat larger animals now rather than the aforementioned bugs and worms; but which is more immoral? For one person to kill a dozen bugs for one meal or if a dozen people to kill one cow/deer/whatever for a dozen meals? After all if we take the position that animal life is as precious as human life then where (and why) do we draw a line differentiating between the various animals?
For that matter, regardless of the claims of "sustainable" agriculture, ANY form of human agriculture is an interference with the natural environment and has it's own consequences. In fact in order to have a complete and balanced vegetarian diet requires a very strict regimum of selecting specific vegetables which may not be available if you only pick "seasonal" foods. That in turn requires either a more unnatural farming practice to produce it locally or an expanded shipping trade to get it from another climate zone. Either impacts the environment. I do believe that every person who does eat meat should at least once in their life have to prepare that meat themselves beggining with killing the animal (whether it be wild game or domestic livestock) and finishing with the cooking just to fully understand that meat doesn't simply show up in the fridge. I know that's not really possible but it is an ideal I believe in.
And for the record; YES, I eat meat!
The question though was, "Is it moral to eat meat?" I would have to say that we didn't suddenly become omnivores but evolved that way just as the other homonids. Granted our technological development has allowed us to eat larger animals now rather than the aforementioned bugs and worms; but which is more immoral? For one person to kill a dozen bugs for one meal or if a dozen people to kill one cow/deer/whatever for a dozen meals? After all if we take the position that animal life is as precious as human life then where (and why) do we draw a line differentiating between the various animals?
For that matter, regardless of the claims of "sustainable" agriculture, ANY form of human agriculture is an interference with the natural environment and has it's own consequences. In fact in order to have a complete and balanced vegetarian diet requires a very strict regimum of selecting specific vegetables which may not be available if you only pick "seasonal" foods. That in turn requires either a more unnatural farming practice to produce it locally or an expanded shipping trade to get it from another climate zone. Either impacts the environment. I do believe that every person who does eat meat should at least once in their life have to prepare that meat themselves beggining with killing the animal (whether it be wild game or domestic livestock) and finishing with the cooking just to fully understand that meat doesn't simply show up in the fridge. I know that's not really possible but it is an ideal I believe in.
And for the record; YES, I eat meat!
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I wondered about that Trixx. I know my cat is a carnivore, but dogs always seemed to be true omnivores.....like foxes, who'll even dig up and eat earthworms as well as raid dustbins and chicken coops and eat fallen apples.
That said, all of the cats I've had munched grass at times, and in Winter have been known to have a chew at the pot plants, so much so that I don't keep toxic ones. They have also had a taste for the weirdest of foods, from rice pudding, with raisins, to the present moggy who likes braised tofu
cheers,
M
Fun fact: Carnivores in the wild seem to have a "sweet tooth" . Most omnivores do also. Closer to home, my cat will beg for canteloupe or almond milk...been known to nibble corn chips and crunchy tortillas too.I suspect it's mostly for the salt.
The whole eating meat thing is complex and the same with farming. I suspect that if we in the UK scrapped all the poly tunnels and man made fertalizers we would a lot worse off than we are now. The concept or tracing meat back to source is nice, but again we could not sustain our requirements if we went back to the old ways.
There are just too many people on too little land, we cannot all have (if indeed wanted by most people) our acre of land to supply our needs.
While the idea of 'two for a fiver' chickens is abhorent to some, the reality is that for many families its the only route open to them. When I was a lad a chicken for most city folk was a luxury and factory farms bought cheap meat, Tangerines were at xmas only and when available many could not afford them (I joke not). Intensive farming and husbandry provide on the whole good food at affordable prices. This weekend my basic food bill was : Friday, Monkfish £22, Saturday, Sirloin steak @£17 and Sunday was Fresh leg of Lamb at @£15 IIRC, almost £55 on meat and fish alone not counting the addons so my weekly shop this week in total was around £180 not counting wines and daily fresh bread, snacks/drinks for the family who work etc and I am very grateful to be able to afford that, for a lot the menu was very different.
If your a family on minimum wage/benefits it must be upsetting for some of them to read how 'wrong' they are in buying the food they do, the option of a half litre tub of luxury ice cream at a fiver is not an option when you can get a 2 litre tube for a quid fifty pence and you have children. I've been in that position myself some years ago and its not fun.
Morality and reality don't always run in tandem.
There are just too many people on too little land, we cannot all have (if indeed wanted by most people) our acre of land to supply our needs.
While the idea of 'two for a fiver' chickens is abhorent to some, the reality is that for many families its the only route open to them. When I was a lad a chicken for most city folk was a luxury and factory farms bought cheap meat, Tangerines were at xmas only and when available many could not afford them (I joke not). Intensive farming and husbandry provide on the whole good food at affordable prices. This weekend my basic food bill was : Friday, Monkfish £22, Saturday, Sirloin steak @£17 and Sunday was Fresh leg of Lamb at @£15 IIRC, almost £55 on meat and fish alone not counting the addons so my weekly shop this week in total was around £180 not counting wines and daily fresh bread, snacks/drinks for the family who work etc and I am very grateful to be able to afford that, for a lot the menu was very different.
If your a family on minimum wage/benefits it must be upsetting for some of them to read how 'wrong' they are in buying the food they do, the option of a half litre tub of luxury ice cream at a fiver is not an option when you can get a 2 litre tube for a quid fifty pence and you have children. I've been in that position myself some years ago and its not fun.
Morality and reality don't always run in tandem.
Quite the contrary sir! The OP asked if it was right to continue eating meat, not whether it was right to stop. That is far from a calling to justify vegetarianism, it is the reverse!
Given the above, exactly how black is my pot Mr. Kettle?
Just read through this thread again, then read just about every other thread that mentions vegetarianism on this forum, and you'll see the standard rubbish trying to show that humans are unable to obtain adequate nutrition without eating meat. There's no paranoia from the veggies on this site, just a weary resignation that we have to correct misconceptions and justify our diet choices again .... and again ... and again.
Whilst the OP may have asked if it was right to continue to eat meat, this question was - as usual - quickly forgotten in attempts to 'defend the eating of meat' (from whom?) and castigating those 'wild and crazy people' who try to feed their pets on vegetarian diets, much to the animals' distress. The insinuation being that this is the same with people and those who wish to deny themselves meat must be wrong.
I am someone who works closely with diet and clinical nutrition, I am not stupid, and I am able to read between the lines. There's someone at every party who just can't accept my lifestyle choice, who thinks it's wrong (and, ergo, I must be thick), who wants to know if I miss the taste of bacon butties, etc. This isn't paranoia. Honest.
As usual, the vast majority of people on this forum show balance and understanding. Others feel it necessary to emphasise differences between us rather than the common ground that pulls us together. These threads always start well and then seem to become divisive. Dunno why. Just do. Sad really...
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It's the way with most fora, Mike.
Is it right to continue to eat meat? Probably not, but we do, many like it. Many faiths, based on the old testament, claim that God gave us dominion over the animals so that we could gobble them up. I spent two years as a veggie and, when feeling fitter, tend to ease back off meat; although currently eat far too much :-(
I like to take my little boy (8 yrs) fishing.... We gut and cook our fish, and he in turn gobbles it up. We shoot rabbits together, gut them and skin them and then have roast rabbit for Sunday lunch, which he then totally gobbles up. Whether it is right to continue to either hunt or eat meat is academic compared to the father and son interaction, the rites of passage for a small boy and the love that we share in this activity which utterly thrills him; an activity which few of his friends get to take part in (I send him off with a rabbit tail as a trophy to take to school).
I used to shoot, gut and chop seals to feed my dog teams; is that wrong? should I feed dogs a veggie diet too? anyone who feeds their dog 'chummy kibbles' (or whatever) is just removing themselves from the blood and guts - but it is still meat.
I'm rambling now... right or wrong???? I still don't know.
Is it right to continue to eat meat? Probably not, but we do, many like it. Many faiths, based on the old testament, claim that God gave us dominion over the animals so that we could gobble them up. I spent two years as a veggie and, when feeling fitter, tend to ease back off meat; although currently eat far too much :-(
I like to take my little boy (8 yrs) fishing.... We gut and cook our fish, and he in turn gobbles it up. We shoot rabbits together, gut them and skin them and then have roast rabbit for Sunday lunch, which he then totally gobbles up. Whether it is right to continue to either hunt or eat meat is academic compared to the father and son interaction, the rites of passage for a small boy and the love that we share in this activity which utterly thrills him; an activity which few of his friends get to take part in (I send him off with a rabbit tail as a trophy to take to school).
I used to shoot, gut and chop seals to feed my dog teams; is that wrong? should I feed dogs a veggie diet too? anyone who feeds their dog 'chummy kibbles' (or whatever) is just removing themselves from the blood and guts - but it is still meat.
I'm rambling now... right or wrong???? I still don't know.
+1 on that. I wish I could have said it as well but all I can do is add a cliche, "If you speak ill of a farmer, don't talk with your mouth full."
Reminds me of when I was a kid. We never bought dog food, just fed the dogs table scraps (the pets anyway as there weren't enough scraps when we kept hunting dogs). Whatever was in the scraps was in them. Only much later did I learn that some of those scraps of human food was supposedly toxic to dogs; onions, grapes, chocolate, bones etc. I suppose they are in sufficient quantity. Even more recently before I learned that wild canines (wolves, foxes, coyotes) are actually omnivores as Toddy suggested. Thing is they really don't digest RAW plant matter well. In the wild their plant matter (and they do need it for their diet to be balanced) comes from the partially digested plants in the stomaches of their prey. A quick look at the ingredients list on commercial dog ration reveals that the bulk of the ingredients are plant derived. Mostly corn in the cheaper brands and rice in the better ones.
We had collies when I was a child. Every hillfarm in Scotland had collies, and they bred; there were always some looking for good homes.
Collies when actively engaged, i.e. given the responsibility of playing with and rounding up children are happy dogs, smart too. No hiding from Mum, or trying to not hear so we could stay out late, when the dog had been sent to fetch us home
Waaaaay back then, soup was on the menu two or three times a week, and the basis for soup was bones from the butcher. Bones came in two varieties; bones for stock, and bones for the dog. Bones for the dog were usually the lower leg bones or the big hip knuckle.
I used to think it perfectly normal. The collie got porage in the morning just as we did, and it got broth before it's dinner, just as we did.
We didn't get the bones though, the dog did, but that was because, "It's good for his teeth." People teeth weren't shaped like that or as big as those. Children can be very simplisticaly rational
If we had stovies, the dog got stovies...though I do mind that macaroni cheese was not given again after an utterly appalling regurgitation
Rice pudding was a favourite, but he had to fight off the cat for that
Apart from one dog who died of distemper, all of our collies lived beyond 15 years old. So, porage and soup seems to have done them no harm
All in all, I suspect that what we eat has really much more to do with choice and opportunity than it has to do with what we 'should' eat. I don't think that's a purely human trait either, goats will try to eat most things but so will puppies and seagulls.
Mikey makes a good point about the vegetarian/carnivore argument too. I don't know any vegetarians/ vegans who drool over the thought or smell of bacon cooking.....frankly, it's such a distinctively appetite killing smell that it can put me right off eating anything
I'd rather not go into detail, but when microwaves were first commonly available it was a quick and dirty diagnostic test of a small bone; human or bird? to give it a quick cook. If it smelled of chicken, it was fowl, if it smelled of bacon it was human. There's a reason cannibals called human flesh longpig.
And on that note, I've lost all interest in my breakfast
atb,
Toddy
Collies when actively engaged, i.e. given the responsibility of playing with and rounding up children
are happy dogs, smart too. No hiding from Mum, or trying to not hear so we could stay out late, when the dog had been sent to fetch us home Waaaaay back then, soup was on the menu two or three times a week, and the basis for soup was bones from the butcher. Bones came in two varieties; bones for stock, and bones for the dog. Bones for the dog were usually the lower leg bones or the big hip knuckle.
I used to think it perfectly normal. The collie got porage in the morning just as we did, and it got broth before it's dinner, just as we did.
We didn't get the bones though, the dog did, but that was because, "It's good for his teeth." People teeth weren't shaped like that or as big as those. Children can be very simplisticaly rational
If we had stovies, the dog got stovies...though I do mind that macaroni cheese was not given again after an utterly appalling regurgitation
Rice pudding was a favourite, but he had to fight off the cat for that Apart from one dog who died of distemper, all of our collies lived beyond 15 years old. So, porage and soup seems to have done them no harm
All in all, I suspect that what we eat has really much more to do with choice and opportunity than it has to do with what we 'should' eat. I don't think that's a purely human trait either, goats will try to eat most things
but so will puppies and seagulls.Mikey makes a good point about the vegetarian/carnivore argument too. I don't know any vegetarians/ vegans who drool over the thought or smell of bacon cooking.....frankly, it's such a distinctively appetite killing smell that it can put me right off eating anything
I'd rather not go into detail, but when microwaves were first commonly available it was a quick and dirty diagnostic test of a small bone; human or bird? to give it a quick cook. If it smelled of chicken, it was fowl, if it smelled of bacon it was human. There's a reason cannibals called human flesh longpig.
And on that note, I've lost all interest in my breakfast
atb,
Toddy
We had collies when I was a child. Every hillfarm in Scotland had collies, and they bred; there were always some looking for good homes.
Collies when actively engaged, i.e. given the responsibility of playing with and rounding up children
Waaaaay back then, soup was on the menu two or three times a week, and the basis for soup was bones from the butcher. Bones came in two varieties; bones for stock, and bones for the dog. Bones for the dog were usually the lower leg bones or the big hip knuckle.
I used to think it perfectly normal. The collie got porage in the morning just as we did, and it got broth before it's dinner, just as we did.
We didn't get the bones though, the dog did, but that was because, "It's good for his teeth." People teeth weren't shaped like that or as big as those. Children can be very simplisticaly rational
If we had stovies, the dog got stovies...though I do mind that macaroni cheese was not given again after an utterly appalling regurgitation
Apart from one dog who died of distemper, all of our collies lived beyond 15 years old. So, porage and soup seems to have done them no harm
All in all, I suspect that what we eat has really much more to do with choice and opportunity than it has to do with what we 'should' eat. I don't think that's a purely human trait either, goats will try to eat most things
Mikey makes a good point about the vegetarian/carnivore argument too. I don't know any vegetarians/ vegans who drool over the thought or smell of bacon cooking.....frankly, it's such a distinctively appetite killing smell that it can put me right off eating anything
I'd rather not go into detail, but when microwaves were first commonly available it was a quick and dirty diagnostic test of a small bone; human or bird? to give it a quick cook. If it smelled of chicken, it was fowl, if it smelled of bacon it was human. There's a reason cannibals called human flesh longpig.
And on that note, I've lost all interest in my breakfast
atb,
Toddy
Mentioning the smell brings up another point. It's rather ironic that vegetarians can be better hunters than the rest of us. Since they don't "smell like carnivores", they tend to frighten game less.
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