Dogs Ears. Why?

[santaman2000]

There have been a few threads about dogs lately and it reminded me of a question that's been on my mind for a while. Namely, Why did we (humans in general) breed dogs with floppy ears?

I know that the extra long floppy ears on a Bloodhound aid it's sense of smell by rubbing the ground and stirring up the spore as it trails. But that's the only breed I know of where it serves any purpose. Yet it's definitely a trait that was deliberately bred as it doesn't occur naturally in any other canine species. In fact dogs with floppy ears usually develop more ear infections or wounds from thorny brush.

Some breeds are particularly curious as they traditionally have/had their ears cropped. I know that's no longer legal in the UK but the fact that it was done at all suggests that erect ears would have been more desirable for what these breeds were originally developed for.

So why did we ever breed them with other than erect ears? And I suppose more to the point; If the desired trait is still erect ears, then why are we still cropping their ears (in those countries where it's legal) instead of trying to breed for that trait?

 

[Wayland]

Good question, no idea of the answer though.

 

[Retired Member southey]

Could it be to protect the inner ear from debris when pushing through undergrowth, discounting anything fashion wise which may have lead to the same trait being breed into other breeds,

 

[robin wood]

my guess is that breeding floppy ears is just like breading any other trait mostly fashion. Having said that when I think through working dogs with floppy ears they do tend to be scent and sight breeds, spaniels, sight hounds, fox hounds, beagles.

The thing about cropping ears is different, that is done to make them look more aggressive, I once looked after a friends doby which had come with them from Morocco and had cropped ears. A doby puts out signals to other dogs with its ear position, down is relaxed submissive, up is alert aggressive. If you crop it's ears it always puts out the alert aggressive message which some owners like, tends to go nicely with the studded spiked collar. It's the canine version of tattooing hate across your forehead. Makes it hard for a dog to make friends and socialise normally, especially if you cut it's tail off too.

 

[Berk]

From my understanding, and without going and looking it all up again, it's due to the nature of dogs as a whole.
It comes down to neoteny, the retention of immature characteristics. The floppy ears come from this, as do a lot of other behaviours. It's probably not something that was bred for originally, but while they were breeding dogs that would remain faithful, they were looking for immature behaviours, due to the nature of genetics, this also fixed other traits.

 

[WoodMan]

My understanding is that, with ground scenting dogs, when the nose is to the ground the ears hang down and funnel/move the scent around and into the nose. This may sound like a bit of a long shot but if you thing about it, if a dog happened to be a good tracker he/she would be bred from, if he/she also happened to have big ears then maybe this trait would be passed on whether or not it is part of the reason for it being a better than average tracker. If that make sense! I saw a doberman with cropped ears a few weeks ago, the first one I have seen for years, I guess it was an import from abroard. Cropping ears must not be considered in the same way as tail docking which is nessesary for true working dogs of certain breeds. Glyn.

 

[Maggot]

Cooling. The ears contain lots of blood vessels, and are quite exposed to the air, so the blood gets cooled very quickly, and the dog stays cooler as a result. It's the same with the tongue. I reckon.

 

[Retired Member southey]

Cooling. The ears contain lots of blood vessels, and are quite exposed to the air, so the blood gets cooled very quickly, and the dog stays cooler as a result. It's the same with the tongue. I reckon.

But wouldnt they get the same or even a better effect from having there ears up?

 

[santaman2000]

Could it be to protect the inner ear from debris when pushing through undergrowth, discounting anything fashion wise which may have lead to the same trait being breed into other breeds,

Maybe. But then again many breeds that are cropped are the ones that go through the thorny underbrush and have the ears cropped to avoid having them shredded. I suppose maybe different breeds are used (bred to be used anyway) in different types of underbrush?

 

[santaman2000]

My understanding is that, with ground scenting dogs, when the nose is to the ground the ears hang down and funnel/move the scent around and into the nose. This may sound like a bit of a long shot but if you thing about it, if a dog happened to be a good tracker he/she would be bred from, if he/she also happened to have big ears then maybe this trait would be passed on whether or not it is part of the reason for it being a better than average tracker. If that make sense! I saw a doberman with cropped ears a few weeks ago, the first one I have seen for years, I guess it was an import from abroard. Cropping ears must not be considered in the same way as tail docking which is nessesary for true working dogs of certain breeds. Glyn.

It makes perfect sense for the ground scenting breeds. But what about the air scenting breeds? Or the sight breeds?

 

[Retired Member southey]

From my understanding, and without going and looking it all up again, it's due to the nature of dogs as a whole.
It comes down to neoteny, the retention of immature characteristics. The floppy ears come from this, as do a lot of other behaviours. It's probably not something that was bred for originally, but while they were breeding dogs that would remain faithful, they were looking for immature behaviours, due to the nature of genetics, this also fixed other traits.

So do you mean that the floppy ears came as they were of similar dominance as the trait they wanted? that would make sense,

 

[Bushwhacker]

Slightly off the cuff but I just had to put a pic up.

These babies have got the lot - using scent, sight, sound, speed and intelligence. I'd really love to own one.
Ibizan Hound Dog.

 

[santaman2000]

Cooling. The ears contain lots of blood vessels, and are quite exposed to the air, so the blood gets cooled very quickly, and the dog stays cooler as a result. It's the same with the tongue. I reckon.

You mean like an African Elephant uses it's ears?

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Floppy ears are of a direct result of the domestication proccess & inbreeding. The vast majority of breeds,if not dogs in general, have the floppy ear Gene so when creating breeds you are more likely to end up with a floppy eared one unless you're selecting specifically for other shaped ears, (which may compromise other selection criteria ).
Large Hunting breeds such as blood hounds & basset hounds for example, have exceptionally long, dangling ears & it is said that this helps activate the surface scent molecules on the game trail, but difficult to verify.....it's possible but since the dog is moving foreward & his ears are slightly further back than his nose, by the time the scent has been stirred the dog is already 2 meters ahead. The only advantage is prehaps when the dog looses the trail & starts to backtrack to find a scent which his ears may then help in collecting the scent molecules....also these 'scent hounds' don't use hearing when hunting so are not distracted by' noises in the bushes' since a large part of their hearing is muffled by their ears, keeping them focussed the scent trail.
Guard dog breeds such as Dobermans, boxers, great danes,etc. Had their ears cropped so they looked more aggressive & impressive, some shepherd breeds who naturally had hanging ears had them cropped which improved their hearing & avoided ear infections ( as well as giving them a 'guard dog 'look, useful on isolated farms) but today ear cropping is more a traditional act layed down in breed standards rather than practical. Some stock & herd protecting dogs have had & continue to have their ears cut off to avoid injury when fighting wolves.

Wishing to change the ear shape of a floppy eared breed is a long & difficult process which would involve the introduction of other breeds with the ***** ear Gene resulting in both physical & character changes in the original breed.


Ear shape & carriage is of secondary importance when creating a breed & since ears could/can be cropped or shaped there was/is no point in risking the integrity of fixed genes by selecting dogs uniquely for their ears.

Wild canines have ***** ears as nature decided this was the best option, man has bred dogs & created breeds by selecting abnormalities & fixing Genetic defects that he found useful.

 

[santaman2000]

...Guard dog breeds such as Dobermans, boxers, great danes,etc. Had their ears cropped so they looked more aggressive & impressive, some shepherd breeds who naturally had hanging ears had them cropped which improved their hearing & avoided ear infections ( as well as giving them a 'guard dog 'look, useful on isolated farms) but today ear cropping is more a traditional act layed down in breed standards rather than practical. Some stock & herd protecting dogs have had & continue to have their ears cut off to avoid injury when fighting wolves...

True enough that the modern reason for cropping is cosmetic (usually) but I think even the guard dog breeds you mentioned probably were originally cropped for a practical reason similar to the ones fighting wolves (not giving the criminal something to grab, etc) and maybe still valid for a true guard dog. But as I asked, why not breed for such an ear if it's a desired trait?

 

[santaman2000]

...Wishing to change the ear shape of a floppy eared breed is a long & difficult process which would involve the introduction of other breeds with the ***** ear Gene resulting in both physical & character changes in the original breed.


Ear shape & carriage is of secondary importance when creating a breed & since ears could/can be cropped or shaped there was/is no point in risking the integrity of fixed genes by selecting dogs uniquely for their ears...

This sounds logical. Especially considering that cropping is relatively easy where legal. Still, if it is a desired trait I'm sure it could be accomplished with selective breeding; although care would have to be taken not to lose other desired traits. And obviously it would take time.

 

[Springheeljack1]

I think it was so kids ( and big kids ) can play with 'erm, flopping them big ears about is all kinds of fun.

 

[robin wood]

So do you mean that the floppy ears came as they were of similar dominance as the trait they wanted? that would make sense,

Neoteny (if I remember right from 30 years ago) is the process where traits and features of the developing young are carried forward into the adult state. It is clear in humans which resemble in many ways ape fetuses with very large head and brain, naked skin etc. so if you take a partly developed wolf cub it may look much like our floppy eared dog and may also have many other traits of the partly developed wolf, eg dependence. I think it is a good theory.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

True enough that the modern reason for cropping is cosmetic (usually) but I think even the guard dog breeds you mentioned probably were originally cropped for a practical reason similar to the ones fighting wolves (not giving the criminal something to grab, etc) and maybe still valid for a true guard dog. But as I asked, why not breed for such an ear if it's a desired trait?

Because these breeds do not have in their genetic make up the ***** ear genes & crossing them with dogs that do to get the erect ears would completly change the original breed. You can't breed for a trait, if the breed does not poccess it in it it's genes.

 

[santaman2000]

Because these breeds do not have in their genetic make up the ***** ear genes & crossing them with dogs that do to get the erect ears would completly change the original breed. You can't breed for a trait, if the breed does not poccess it in it it's genes.

Granted you would have to cross-breed in. But then re-enforce the original breed by back breeding and only breeding subsequent litters from specimens exhibiting all desired traits. That's the way breeds have been developed for centuries.

An example (although a different species) is the further development of the "polled" Hereford cattle from the original "Hereford" which was developed by cross-breeding Herefords with polled breeds then back breeding as discussed above. The result was a breed with all the traits of the original Hereford except that it is now a polled breed.

I see no reason the same husbandry process wouldn't work with dogs.