Dog killed barn owl

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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
A chain on a wire can give a dog lots of freedom to run around while still preventing them from running amok.

I'm anti the shock collars. Don't think they work.
I've had an untrained dog that would bite people when they tried to leave the house. Try to restrain him and he'd twist round and put his teeth in your wrist. Was advised to try pushing his head/muzzle down onto the ground and hold until he gave in (relaxed). This worked (although he made the most horrendous noises). Turned into a lovely natured biddable animal who could be restrained by a slightly firm word.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
Not my first choice either TBH. And agreed, it's a method very easy for most of us to screw up. However the OP has described a behavior that will eventually get the dog killed by an irate chicken farmer if left uncorrected.

I also disagree that the dog is doing it as a form of play. Most chicken killing dogs are responding to prey drive. Positive reinforcement ain't gonna break that. If as you infer, it might be a "strong willed" dog and, as I stated, it's reacting to a strong prey drive, then it's unlikely any method will break it. That leaves three basic choices:
1) resort to drastic training measures as a last resort
2) take very strong measures to keep the dog confined to your own land, or
3) get rid of it.

My personal choice would be #2

Positive reinforcement is for reinforcing behavior you want them to repeat. Negative reinforcement is to break them of behavior you don't want them to repeat (extreme negative reinforcement is for a last resort to an extreme situation) Same as raising children; yes I spanked my daughter when she warranted it and still spank the grandkids when they do (rare occasions in both instances)

The problem with negative reinforcement is that the dog has absolutely no idea why it's being punished.

It's like when people punish their dog or rub the dogs noses in it when a dog poops indoors, after the dog has pooped it's completely moved on, so punishing it after the fact is pointless.

Likewise with Spandit's problem when do you activate the shock collar, when it looks at a chicken, after it attacks it?

You also need to look at a dogs natural behaviour, there used to be a dog on our street that used to get along great with cats, one day a cat from another area attacked the dog (pretty strong negative reinforcement) the dog went after cats from that day forward, the more cats fought back the worse it's behaviour got.


With positive reinforcement you are giving the dog something more interesting to do BEFORE it gets riled up, so you are taking that attack mode away.

I'm not convinced positive reinforcement would work either but don't want to resort to using shock tactics! We try to keep her in and when we get our own chickens, we'll keep her out, as we would for foxes. She's killed pheasant before and goes completely deaf when she goes on the offensive. She just likes killing things. Unfortunate, really but instincts are powerful things.

I reckon the only way she'd kill the owl is by cutting off the food supply by eating all the voles - the state of my garden/fields testifies to her success

Dogs have been breed for centuries to have a attitude that pleases us, i don't believe that if a dog is well fed it has a "natural" instinct to kill, even if it has it can be trained out of it.

As an example look to those poor dogs that are breed to fight, they're trained from puppies to attack and kill other dogs, yet with patience, socialisation and training this can be trained out of them.

The trick with positive reinforcement is in the timing, if you've found something that motivates her then you need to distract her with that before she locks on and goes deaf.

If that's not possible then try a different motivation, something really smelly like sausages can often do the trick as many dogs are lead by their noses.

Once you've found that motivation then use it to distract her as you walk past the chickens, the object it to eventually get closer and closer to the chickens without her noticing them.
With persistence eventually you'll be able to have her within a few meters of a chicken without going into attack mode, you'll then reward this behaviour, so she'll link chickens with good things.

It sounds easy but it's going to take a LOT of time, effort and patience, in my experience dogs just want to please us, the difficult part is getting them to understand what we want or in this case don't want them to do.

I don't agree with just fencing the dog off for the simple reason is that the behaviour will not correct itself, and by being fenced off the dog is likely to get only more frustrated, which just makes the matter worse.

It's also a very very bad trait for a dog to have, eventually it won't just be chickens and birds the dog goes after, it'll move onto cats, then other dogs, then faster moving objects like bikes and runners.

So it might only be chickens now, but IMO this is extremely serious and needs to be corrected.
 
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spandit

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 6, 2011
5,594
308
East Sussex, UK
Some good advice there, don't necessarily agree with all of it but will make efforts to train her out of it. I wish I had the time to be consistent with her training as I'd love a gundog but I go away a lot and although she gets plenty of attention & exercise when I'm away, it's not as focused as I'd like

Very affectionate towards people, though & extremely tolerant of our young daughter.

Thanks for not overreacting to my deliberately inflammatory title!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
The problem with negative reinforcement is that the dog has absolutely no idea why it's being punished.

It's like when people punish their dog or rub the dogs noses in it when a dog poops indoors, after the dog has pooped it's completely moved on, so punishing it after the fact is pointless.

Likewise with Spandit's problem when do you activate the shock collar, when it looks at a chicken, after it attacks it?.........

........The trick with positive reinforcement is in the timing, if you've found something that motivates her then you need to distract her with that before she locks on and goes deaf..........

You've hit the nail on the head for both positive and negative reinforcement; it must occur immediately so the dog knows what it's being punished or rewarded for. As you said, that's imperative with negative reinforcement and doubly so with something like a shock collar. As you and others on here have said, it's an extreme measure and I'd only consider it as a last resort. I completely agree with you that it's really, really easy to screw up the timing and thus the desired results.

As to when to activate it? As soon as the dog starts to charge the prey. Will it work? Only with consistency and patience (and even then it's not guaranteed) Preferably it's done in a way that the dog doesn't associate it with "punishment" as such. Ideally it would work the same way that pets and stock begin to associate a shock with touching an electric "hot wire" wire around the stock fence or garden fence; it's just there and it's a given if they try to touch the fence.

With something like the fence, that's easy as it does it's job automatically so timing is also automatic and consistent. With a shock collar (or any other form of punishment that relies on human judgment and reaction) that's more difficult to achieve as you said. Personally if I were to go that far with it I'd turn the job over to a professional trainer instead of attempting it myself.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Some good advice there, don't necessarily agree with all of it but will make efforts to train her out of it. I wish I had the time to be consistent with her training as I'd love a gundog but I go away a lot and although she gets plenty of attention & exercise when I'm away, it's not as focused as I'd like

Very affectionate towards people, though & extremely tolerant of our young daughter.

Thanks for not overreacting to my deliberately inflammatory title!

As per my last post, you might consider a professional trainer. Particularly in light of your desire for a gundog. Of course it's possible to train your own but they can devote the time that you might not have.
 

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