Cotton kills

[Janne]

Autumns and springs are very wet in the western (ex) Soviet Union.
The Soviet soldier managed very well in their cotton clothes then also.

The other Armies in that conflict managed well too, plus all through the Cold War.

Swedish Army up to late 80’s: all layers were cotton except one thin winter woolen jumper, woolen outer socks and one thick coat that was made from cotton with a synthetic fur inner lining. Winter cap cotton with synthetic fur inside.

Yes, it does get cold. -30 to -40 is not uncommon. Dry for sure, unless you are stupid enough to get snow into the boots of inside collar.

 

[Billy-o]

I hope that was not directed at me.

If you mean me, no.

I mean Janne, who isn't idiot enough ever to get snow in his boots or rain down the back of his neck, ever

 

[Janne]

No, daddy told me how to dress before we went out skiing.
I did not argue with him, as I trusted he knew best.

Maybe that info saved my life later on. At least some toes were.

Get snow in boots in -40 a couple of days outside civilisation and you are potentially in trouble. With or without wooden socks.
Simple as that.

 

[Erbswurst]

It depends where you are.

If it is cold and humid I prefere wool, but usually I use a cotton T-shirt and a cotton shirt over it and than over it perhaps wool layers.
In my opinion socks must contain minimum 60% wool and up to 40% plastic fibres, but never cotton if it isn't in a desert climate.

Trousers I prefere in a mixture of 65% cotton and 35% Polyester. For me that works the best in all circumstances.

But of course leather shorts or knee long closed trousers with woolen Socks are the best option, it doesnt matter, if you wear long cotton or wool underwear under that leather trousers, but of course wool is warmer.

In Germany I can't run around all the year in merino clothing, even here that's simply to hot in most conditions for me.

In my opinion the secret is just that you have to stay dry. But yes, thick cotton layers outdoors are nonsens in my opinion.

 

[Erbswurst]

Do you still wear that Viking helmets in Sweden and Norway?

 

[Janne]

Only when we invade the British Isles.



My personal deep winter foot wear was silk inner, cotton in the middle and wool outer.
( plus leather boots)
Mother made me enough wool socks to last me two lifetimes.

Wool insoles.

 

[Robson Valley]

I have wool felt insoles for my snowmobile winter boots. You can dance in those, not clumsy at all.
The deal is, like I harped on before = stay dry. I have 4 pairs of wool felt insoles. My feet stay dry and warm.
No socks. Jump in, barefoot, and get outdoors at -20C is no big deal. The toe wiggling part is really nice.

Yes, I have 9 toes, I know what happens when the shirt hits the fan.

I'm not ready for the wet & cold of a UK winter. Must ask NYorks family about that.

 

[Paul_B]

That's the difference between real sub zero cold and uk wet cold. A colleague once went from conference in Florida to business meeting in a particularly cold city in Canada one winter. The Canadian trip was last minute after arriving in Florida.

I remember him telling me that people often wore cotton jeans and cotton or leather jackets. Then going inside they brushed the snow off like dust. He even said the snow blew down the street like dreary dust. Very easy to keep dry when out and you only got wet if stupid enough to not brush it off before getting inside and in the warmth. He even said most places had a covered veranda or walkway before the entrances to allow a place out of any snow to dust off.

UK is very different. I've only had that effect in very cold winters for us when coming down off the fells. You brush the worst of the snow and ice off your clothes and boots. It kept you drier when you dropped back down to the close to zero slush.

 

[Paul_B]

Trolling on this subject is a disservice; (entertaining as it must be for the trolls themselves). It is just bad, misleading information injected into a forum resource that people come to looking for good info from people who claim to know what they are on about. It is awfully sad to see.

Whilst I'm too diplomatic to put it that way I agree with the substance of what you say. Often the easiest advice for beginners to the outdoors is to recommend synthetics or merino and the avoidance of cotton.

Imho use of cotton in the outdoors is more of an expert thing should the person insist on it. There's no real reason to use cotton in cold conditions as a warm layer. That's not to say serious cold it can't be used just that people can easily mess up with cotton on.

RV knows his stuff and tbh is in a different user category than most on this site. He's often in dry cold and work type situation. In would be curious as to his lined jeans. What is the lining made of? Synthetic, wool or cotton? What is the cotton coat lined with? What is your base and warmth layers? Does it change between work, outdoors leisure and non- work times when doing your day to day activities? Is your cotton in certain outer layers and synthetics or wool in insulation or next to skin layers?

As I said online forums really need to cater for the novice because it's the novice is most likely to make life threatening decisions. Wool and synthetic outdoor fabrics make for a safer recommendation.

 

[Broch]

Oh dear, and this is why I no longer listen to experts at all and carry out my own objective research We've been over these discussion several times over the past few years and it would appear people are as fixed in their opinions as ever

I do wish some people could be less partisan and subjective when being asked for advice.

I think this table sums it up - draw your own conclusions (table published in Best Hiking)

 

[Paul_B]

I hope my post snuck in before yours and your disdain wasn't for my post Broch. I believe we're basically on the same page on this. I believe cotton can have it's uses but it's limited and typically expert/niche use or safer conditions where water absorption and evaporation is a positive.

 

[Broch]

I hope my post snuck in before yours and your disdain wasn't for my post Broch. I believe we're basically on the same page on this. I believe cotton can have it's uses but it's limited and typically expert/niche use or safer conditions where water absorption and evaporation is a positive.

No, definitely not pointed at you Paul, and it wasn't meant to be so much disdain as despair

 

[C_Claycomb]

Really chaps.





"In the hills, cotton kills". This is a statement made by people experienced in temperate and maritime climates, particularly mountainous areas where weather change quickly, when advising people new to the environment. It is a short statement of guidance that is easy to remember and apply.

It is a hell of a lot better to tell someone not to hike the Scottish mountains in cotton than to tell them they mustn't get hypothermia, even when that is the real problem to be avoided. The former will greatly improve odds of avoiding the latter.

 

[Robson Valley]

I like the feel of a brushed cotton flannel fabric against my skin in the Canadian winter.
Most pairs of my denim winter pants are lined with flannel cotton as well.

I can't help you on a winter day if it is pi$$ing slushy rain. I would be so cold!
All I can recommend is that you have multiple sets of clothing so you can get dry if you get soaked.
I have a rain coat meant for off-shore sailing races. All that is above freezing when it rains.
But I stew in my own juice in it if there's any work to be done.

What's the temperature? Just -10C this morning?
Damn wind is blowing and it snowed in the night, streets and roof tops are white again.
Those observations mean an average thick wool sweater and lined denim jeans.
I am planning to cut the wind (and subsequent wind chill issue) all over me.
I do have some outside chores to do later today and I'm not going to be cold.

My newest pants have fabric and lining which doesn't look like cotton at all.
Must be some sorts of synthetics which have a deserved reputation of being really cold.
I'm holding off on wearing them until it gets a little colder.

I always turn to my Carhartt coats for the wind. Some sort of treated tightly woven canvas.
I have no worries about getting wet. The snow is like sugar, you just brush it off.
The lining is some quilted thickness, maybe 1/2" at most. Not worn through after nearly 20 winters.
I was accused of looking like I was homeless so I was gifted a new Carhartt coat a couple of years back.

Two more things:
1. My coats have drawstrings at waist level. Preset, that keeps the coat from working like bellows.
2. I need a very soft and fuzzy scarf with great loft. Just bunched at the neck of my coat. Plug the hole.
= = =
Head gear. Huge amounts of human body heat are lost through the scalp.
As thin as my old hair has become, I need serious help and a stiff hat is a mistake.
Bulky knitted toque with ear flaps a la Peruvian style. I have pull over hoods, too.
Good to have several is atrocious loud colors and patterns.
= = =

If it gets really bad, -20C and colder and you gotta go out.
I blew a bundle on an Eddie Bauer down parka with a huge hood.
The most dumb-a$$ pockets to fight with in mittens.
I can attach LED lighting units to the sleeve cuffs for short distance tasks.
Sunsert here on the solstice is 1:52 PM. Nothing ever goes wrong until after dark.
= = =
Canada goose hunting here, you sit in the blind a lot and it's cold.
Base layer becomes Stanfield's wool long john underwear.
All the usual layers. Top is NatGear Snow Camo, the usual fuzzy brushes fabric.
Mostly, the deal is to cut the wind = the worst enemy.

Get the stove going. Petrol burns at any temp. Get some water on for drink.
The little Coleman 533 is stinky but sure runs hot.

 

[Woody girl]

I've decided to splash out on another pair of rohan winter jeans. I live in jeans.suffering from a lack of circulation below the waist due to my spinal problems it's important to keep my legs warm.
I would not wear these for outdoor activities but fine for everything else.

 

[Janne]

Bit off topic, but one kind of fabric which is (was?) hugely insulating, and the clothing versatile, was the Helly Hansen long pile fleece.
(I think it was called a fleece.)
They made a jacket type sweater with a full front zip, one breast pocket, and the lower back part went well below the backside.
Plus long johns with a fly that opened wide
With the' hairs' inwards - warmest we had. With the 'hairs' outwards - warm, but also insulating against hot sun.

In cold weather emergency situations, many people die because they are unable to lit a fire. Hands/fingers become clumsy. These HH jacket/sweaters had long sleeves with a thumb hole. Your hands were kept warm, even in cold.

I have not seen them being sold for years now. I managed to find some of the sweaters in a pro fishing store and bought the remaining ones in my size.

They only had/have two negative aspects. The material is highly meltable, and the 'hairs' get squashed after maybe 10-15 washes.


Flannel: Seems to be very thin and flimsy these days?

 

[Robson Valley]

Lots of people get caught every year in wet cotton clothing. No anticipation
to have a dry change. OK. Plan B has to be some extra heat and lots of it.
For heaven's sake, rig up some way to get out of the wind.
Some sort of heat reflectors from the fire. I have 3 aluminized (Mylar?) reflector "space blanket" sheets.
Just a few grams apiece and wind proof once again. They ride in my day pack that is always with me when I'm hunting.

Heat: You buy a dozen boxes of Coughlan's Hurricane matches.
You buy a dozen butane lighters. Pull off all the child-proof(?) flint strips.
You salt those things all over your kit. Cheap insurance.
Set a whole box of matches on fire. What were they saved for?
Under a big stack of smashed conifer twigs, that match box is one hell of a fire starter.
I pretend that I am only ever going to get one shot at getting this fire going and I will not miss.

Consider the mass of a pertrol stove and fuel. They light in direct rain and light at any temperature.
I expect absolute reliability and I see that in Coleman petrol stoves.
The 533 and a liter of fuel isn't so bad to carry for a day. Medium heat is about 3 hours running time.
Candy junk food and a bog roll round off my essentials.
I have run a cartridge butane stove for decades. Mid summer, yes.
Anything colder than, say, +15C and it will not boil water at full throttle.
OK in the house during a power failure.

Next, you get that soggy wet victim over by the fire. Read the signs of hypothermia.
Don't let that fire die down at all. Any hot drinks, even just hot water, and lots of it.
No alcohol. That's a bass-akward disaster in the making. Biochemical fact.

Buy everything for the little old lady down your street to knit some serious wool sweaters and hats and mitt liners for you.
Pay her well to make things that can last you for years.

Be tolerant of the stupid people who see you dressed well when they ask: "Are you cold?"
They can eat some nose-pick. Of course, I am not cold.
= = =
Today, it got up to +2C as the clouds moved in. 20-30 cm snow this weekend and -10C again.
Here' we pray it isn't wet or worst = freezing rain. If it stays cold, the snow brushes off like sugar.
Maybe light up the Coleman for a hot drink outside the back door.
Lifetime of memories in the characteristic sound of those stoves.
= = =
Maybe none of this is what you will do. I plan to be happy.

 

[Woody girl]

Well I'm busy knitting winter warmers for my friends, socks hats and mittens I've crochet ed a few lap blankets too with the odds and ends left over.. not pretty but they are warm. Just been hinted that a sweater is needed by another friend for winter... she should have asked last summer. I don't knit fast nowadays like I used to. No chance she will get it before spring now sadly. She's a bigger person so an awful lot of knitting on that one!
Everyone should learn to knit. I'm learning to card and spin too. Have a huge sack of wool to card first though before the spinning. Planning to have a great wool jacket knitted by next autumn for myself. It's a Jacob fleece. A rare breed sheep. I've already made the wooden buttons for it.

 

[Robson Valley]

Proud of you, Woody Girl. "not pretty but they are warm." That's the driving point.
Some sort of a windproof and (maybe) waterproof shell over top and it's pure comfort.

That's why I brought it up. Pure wool garments are so hard to find, I have to buy local hand goods to get anything.
I'd much rather support pensioners than chain franchises with offshore factories.
Buffalo yarn and Cowichan sweaters.
In this day and time, I have two ladies to knit if they are not overwhelmed with projects already.

Long ago in a past life, I bought raw, greasy fleeces in wool sales.
Washed, dried, teased and carded more than enough for beer money.
That was the grunt-work that the weavers had no appetite for.

Is it not interesting that these same techniques are so very hard to apply to cottons?
Not a home business at all to begin with cotton bolls and weave the fabric for a shirt.

As I've been retired for quite a while and not getting any younger,
I like a warm baggy cardigan with several big pockets for house wear.
I have two flannel ones with quilted linings. Store bought with press stud closures.
My favorite cardigans have NO POCKETS! Maybe I can get that fixed.

 

[Woody girl]

Pockets are best knitted in as part of the construction of the garment, but I don't see why you could not make patch pockets by knitting a couple of sqares and sewing them on .