Thanks. I tried that, or only slightly differently: Wind chill charts in celsius. All my hits were still in farenheit.
Cotton kills
- Thread starter SCOMAN
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Thanks. I tried that, or only slightly differently: Wind chill charts in celsius. All my hits were still in farenheit.
If you could keep the water and wind off, why not.
Jeans are hard wearing handy items, but not suited to prolonged periods worn in inclement conditions remote from shelter. When they get wet in cool conditions it takes a lot of energy to dry them off, if you add in more rain and some wind; a body quickly reaches the stage where it can't bring the cold wet cotton up to temperature, but it keeps trying too. even with wool trollies, welsh or otherwise.
That still won't kill, provided the core temp can be maintained and shelter can be found before too long. A day wandering the fields or fells with just a jacket when you're caught out get soaked battered by the wind, and several hours later make it back home or to the car etc. I'm sure most of us have been in that situation.
But imagine being in that situation where you can't get home and are forced to spend the night out in the open in poor weather. Wet jeans, even with merino long johns under will still draw off body heat, the extent of the conditions will determine the speed at which that happens.
When things are touch and go it's the seemingly little things that can make the difference. Muesli bar versus full english/scotts/welsh/irish breakfast, cotton versus polly cotton, cotton next to the skin versus synthetic/wool, windproof versus waterproof etc.
We had a wake up call some years back when two local kids much the same age as me died of exposure whilst crossing a highish pass from one glen to the next, a common enough event. They were dressed, most of them, in typical rural attire, wellie boots jeans waterproof jackets wooly jumper hat, the lad from this village was dressed in pumps jeans teeshirt sweatshirt-hoody and leather jacket.
They set off in good time but ran into trouble in the pass, they'd been soaked and chilled down in the wind, the lad couldn't go on refused to try and eventually went to sleep, the two girls couldn't carry him. One wanted to return the way they'd come as once over the pass there was some relief from the wind, the other wanted to stay put.
It was long dark by the time that girl got off the hill and raised the alarm and it was the following morning by the time the rescue team had found them and got them to a position where thy could be lifted off by an RAF search and rescue helicopter. The lad had died during the early evening of the day before, the girl died in the helicopter en route to hospital.
This didn't happen in the dead of winter, it happened on a three hour walk in September. By the time they realised something was up, one was hypothermic and rapidly becoming immobile, another was hypothermic enough as to have a rationality impairment, only one was still thinking clearly enough to act.
All of which were was directly related to their attire, that simple. Had the lad been a little better dressed they'd likely have made it without issue.
Still like my cotton t shirt/ sweatshirts for hillwalks so comfortable and easy but carry a wool army jumper, sleeka, or a buffalo smock for stops. If out at night camping cotton dries while wearing the dry top
tried merino/ helly hansens/ Lowe alpine/montane windproofs and many others all too hot for me but do wear this type when just out without a pack ( wood, beach walk)
tried merino/ helly hansens/ Lowe alpine/montane windproofs and many others all too hot for me but do wear this type when just out without a pack ( wood, beach walk)
My time in the army we had wool "Hairy Mary" shirts, then later most of us wore Norwegian Cotton pile shirts.
The Hairy Mary shirts were superior in every condition be that hot or cold or even cold wet soaked. But we all still preferred the cotton as it was so "softie" when fresh on.
Work in wool in the wet and cold and the worst it gets is hot and steamy. Stop working and when sheltered the body heat can dry it if energy levels are kept up. Thick enough wool, depending on the weave, can be weather proof such as a greatcoat as used in the Navy, but wow are they heavy. Old wool battle dress were tough, warm and generally liked.
Cotton holds water that never gets warm and stays wet. Thin enough then wind can dry it quickly, but will take the heat too. Its great for working fast and hard, but once the work is finished it is really poor. For standing about it needs to be dry. For hot heavy tabbing I liked cotton as I generated far too much heat.
Ventile is for outer garment use only. It breaths brilliantly when dry, so I like it. As a windproof and waterproof then at best its good, but not great as it takes two layers to work well enough. I like it for Southern England.
Too many people get into trouble because they aren't climatised to the area. Central heating to the hill is a big leap, as is air conditioning into the heat. Defence against wind chill is a windproof. Defence against the wet is a waterproof. Thermal layers protect against the cold and need to be deep enough that warmth can't escape. However its the wet from sweat that needs managing. If that wet takes heat away from the body then thats bad in cold environments. Wool isn't as bad as cotton here, but sometimes the wetted clothing still requires removing from contact with the body. The only way to do that is to strip and get dry clothing next to the skin, which is the reason for two sets of underclothes. Dry clothing doesn't transfer heat outwards. Have a "dry" to change into after exertions/work. Trouble is few know and fewer are proactive enough to do it, being lazy (we all shivered at the end of a day hoping that we dry off fast enough...not very clever. (Dry should be saved and wet got into every morning for work)).
Anyhow, its all "wet" management. The rest is to have enough clothing that it is able to counter the conditions without work; surprising how thick that needs to be.
I like pertex and fibrepile as a modern alternative to wool.
Cotton doesn't kill, its the wet that does.
The Hairy Mary shirts were superior in every condition be that hot or cold or even cold wet soaked. But we all still preferred the cotton as it was so "softie" when fresh on.
Work in wool in the wet and cold and the worst it gets is hot and steamy. Stop working and when sheltered the body heat can dry it if energy levels are kept up. Thick enough wool, depending on the weave, can be weather proof such as a greatcoat as used in the Navy, but wow are they heavy. Old wool battle dress were tough, warm and generally liked.
Cotton holds water that never gets warm and stays wet. Thin enough then wind can dry it quickly, but will take the heat too. Its great for working fast and hard, but once the work is finished it is really poor. For standing about it needs to be dry. For hot heavy tabbing I liked cotton as I generated far too much heat.
Ventile is for outer garment use only. It breaths brilliantly when dry, so I like it. As a windproof and waterproof then at best its good, but not great as it takes two layers to work well enough. I like it for Southern England.
Too many people get into trouble because they aren't climatised to the area. Central heating to the hill is a big leap, as is air conditioning into the heat. Defence against wind chill is a windproof. Defence against the wet is a waterproof. Thermal layers protect against the cold and need to be deep enough that warmth can't escape. However its the wet from sweat that needs managing. If that wet takes heat away from the body then thats bad in cold environments. Wool isn't as bad as cotton here, but sometimes the wetted clothing still requires removing from contact with the body. The only way to do that is to strip and get dry clothing next to the skin, which is the reason for two sets of underclothes. Dry clothing doesn't transfer heat outwards. Have a "dry" to change into after exertions/work. Trouble is few know and fewer are proactive enough to do it, being lazy (we all shivered at the end of a day hoping that we dry off fast enough...not very clever. (Dry should be saved and wet got into every morning for work)).
Anyhow, its all "wet" management. The rest is to have enough clothing that it is able to counter the conditions without work; surprising how thick that needs to be.
I like pertex and fibrepile as a modern alternative to wool.
Cotton doesn't kill, its the wet that does.
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Semi tropics here. But yeah, wool is just waaay too hot in the summer. Nice in the few cold spells we get though.
Cotton does not kill. Lack of knowledge and common does.
Layering, removing/adding layers and changing to dry works.
Maritime tropics here. Cotton, silk and 'Tropical wool' is best here. Synthetics only give big profits to perfume and deodorant manufacturers.
Layering, removing/adding layers and changing to dry works.
Maritime tropics here. Cotton, silk and 'Tropical wool' is best here. Synthetics only give big profits to perfume and deodorant manufacturers.
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Why do we keep coming back to this? It's like anti-vaxxers arguing mumps is character forming. 
In cold weather, cotton will do its damnest to take you out of the world's equation. If you are wearing cotton and get wet and then get lost, stuck or injured your chances of getting dead from exposure increase exponentially. When you get wet cold like that you will tire, you will lose focus and make weird decisions, you will want to hunker down and that may well put you at risk in your circumstances.
Even in the hot, cotton isn't the great winner as it tends to pong and cause rashes. Linen wins the prize for hot weather.
In cold weather, cotton will do its damnest to take you out of the world's equation. If you are wearing cotton and get wet and then get lost, stuck or injured your chances of getting dead from exposure increase exponentially. When you get wet cold like that you will tire, you will lose focus and make weird decisions, you will want to hunker down and that may well put you at risk in your circumstances.
Even in the hot, cotton isn't the great winner as it tends to pong and cause rashes. Linen wins the prize for hot weather.
You need to tell this to all the people in the Caribbean, specially the workers working outside....
I treat several a day, and no, they do not suffer from BO or rashes...
Linen feels nicer, but it is very expensive, and not much is made from linen.
I agree, discussing with somebody that thinks that cotton kills is like talking to an Antivaxxer..
It is the moisture. Water has a very high specific heat = the energy needed to raise the temperature of water.
What happens is that you shed body energy into wet clothing faster than you can generate the energy in your metabolism.
So you start to shiver, uncontrollably. Just muscle work to make more body heat.
Ever need both hands to put a key in a door lock?
Wool keeps its insulating loft while cotton compacts when it gets wet.
Lots of research and development has gone into synthetic fiber to mimic the characteristics of wool, wet or dry.
Stay dry. Don't risk getting soaking wet in cold weather.
A fire won't help as much as get out of the wind and put on dry clothes.
Soaking wet, your periferal circulation is losing body heat to you wet/cold clothing.
At some point there's a flood of exchange between that circulation and your body core.
When that cold blood reaches your heart, it stops beating.
It's probably important to learn to recognize the signs of hypothermia in other people.
All stop. Correct the situation before somebody dies.
What happens is that you shed body energy into wet clothing faster than you can generate the energy in your metabolism.
So you start to shiver, uncontrollably. Just muscle work to make more body heat.
Ever need both hands to put a key in a door lock?
Wool keeps its insulating loft while cotton compacts when it gets wet.
Lots of research and development has gone into synthetic fiber to mimic the characteristics of wool, wet or dry.
Stay dry. Don't risk getting soaking wet in cold weather.
A fire won't help as much as get out of the wind and put on dry clothes.
Soaking wet, your periferal circulation is losing body heat to you wet/cold clothing.
At some point there's a flood of exchange between that circulation and your body core.
When that cold blood reaches your heart, it stops beating.
It's probably important to learn to recognize the signs of hypothermia in other people.
All stop. Correct the situation before somebody dies.
Exactly. Stay dry. Do not get wet, be it from sweat (overdressing) or by exterior water. If you do get wet, change clothes so you are dry.
The undergarment 'brynja' ( = armless fishnet tshirt) has been the underlayer of choice for generations. Cotton, makes insulationg 'pockets between skin and shirt.
The undergarment 'brynja' ( = armless fishnet tshirt) has been the underlayer of choice for generations. Cotton, makes insulationg 'pockets between skin and shirt.
Coat of mail or plate. You're using the modern meaning of string vest.
Then there's the brand Brynje. Looking at their website for activity based on seasons winter is synthetic mesh garments but cotton is available. That brand only offers cotton on the activity filter of summer. I guess they don't rate cotton for winter use. Whether that's about wanting their customers to come back or their relatives not to sue them.
Seriously though, you can wear cotton not you do need you account for limitations same as any other materials. It's known properties with retaining water is a big limitation when keeping skin dry has lifesaving importance. Not just my opinion but it seems the opinion of a well known Norwegian supplier of string vests for outdoor use. Imho norwegians know a bit about keeping warm in cold conditions.
Then there's the brand Brynje. Looking at their website for activity based on seasons winter is synthetic mesh garments but cotton is available. That brand only offers cotton on the activity filter of summer. I guess they don't rate cotton for winter use. Whether that's about wanting their customers to come back or their relatives not to sue them.
Seriously though, you can wear cotton not you do need you account for limitations same as any other materials. It's known properties with retaining water is a big limitation when keeping skin dry has lifesaving importance. Not just my opinion but it seems the opinion of a well known Norwegian supplier of string vests for outdoor use. Imho norwegians know a bit about keeping warm in cold conditions.
The research field really began with the WW II efforts to save ditched pilots in the North Sea.
The Nazi German research into hypothermia was cruel, meticulous and productive.
Fast forward to Dr. John Hayward's torture lab at the University of Victoria.
Cardiac catheters and all. Many countries use Mustang Survival suits of UVic design.
Like the Scandinavians, Canadians have a fairly good idea of what it's like to be cold at -40C or lower.
It's all kinds of stuff that you learn, growing up with winters like that. Even the clothes you wear.
I have several all wool sweaters ( = jumpers) that I save for the -10C and colder days of winter.
Most recently, I had a new wool sweater custom-knit for me. Easiest thing for me to do is stay dry.
Under my circumstances, I can wear cotton in the cold and get away with it.
Just as long as I can get out of the wind (and the wind chill), the cotton insulation is reasonable.
Things like mukluks, Carhartt canvas and denim jeans with thermal linings.
The Nazi German research into hypothermia was cruel, meticulous and productive.
Fast forward to Dr. John Hayward's torture lab at the University of Victoria.
Cardiac catheters and all. Many countries use Mustang Survival suits of UVic design.
Like the Scandinavians, Canadians have a fairly good idea of what it's like to be cold at -40C or lower.
It's all kinds of stuff that you learn, growing up with winters like that. Even the clothes you wear.
I have several all wool sweaters ( = jumpers) that I save for the -10C and colder days of winter.
Most recently, I had a new wool sweater custom-knit for me. Easiest thing for me to do is stay dry.
Under my circumstances, I can wear cotton in the cold and get away with it.
Just as long as I can get out of the wind (and the wind chill), the cotton insulation is reasonable.
Things like mukluks, Carhartt canvas and denim jeans with thermal linings.
Moving to warm Carribean islands and living 22hrs a day in an aircon environment is high on Scandinavian cold weather training list. Lars Fallt always keeps one in his rucksack.
Trolling on this subject is a disservice; (entertaining as it must be for the trolls themselves). It is just bad, misleading information injected into a forum resource that people come to looking for good info from people who claim to know what they are on about. It is awfully sad to see.
No doubt you can get away with a wet cotton t-shirt during a blizzard and with a twisted ankle. Luck and skill, you'd need some of that. But why (other than for a kind of cruel sport) would you want to advise people who are starting out that cotton is a good idea in the cold and wet. I don't know one, not one, winter sports/outdoors type who would do anything but look with suspicion and concern at anyone making 'cotton is good in the snow' argument, and then they'd politely (though often not) correct them, in detail.
Apart from anything else it is just misery making. I wore a cotton shirt once, showshoeing uphill for a day. Once was enough to ensure a lesson learned.. It was horrible.
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Get real, BillyO.
I am not trolling. You think that I troll because I do not agree with you? I am trying to say that it is ridiculous to say a fiber causes death, when the real reason is insufficient knowledge, preparation and skills of the user.
Starting to rain? Protect yourself.
If you get wet ( say - fall into a stream) - change clothes.
Cold? Make a fire, get dry and warm.
If you do not have the skill set to survive the basic potentially dangerous situation, make sure you learn from others that have those skills and experience first. Do not venture out into the wilderness during cold ( autumn, winter, early spring) alone, without the necessary skills and experience. Simple as that.
Learn your limits, behave accordingly.
The chance of getting accidentally wet, then falling and getting hurt, on a cold day/ night is pretty slim.
In those extreme cases, a woolen layer would not save you.
And what has the fact that I live in the Caribbean have to do with my views?
Do you think the heat here has made my skills won by living in the Arctic disappear?
(Plus, I spend more and more time in the Arctic every year. More in winter ( 6 weeks in total ) than summer ( 2.5 weeks) this year.)
I am not trolling. You think that I troll because I do not agree with you? I am trying to say that it is ridiculous to say a fiber causes death, when the real reason is insufficient knowledge, preparation and skills of the user.
Starting to rain? Protect yourself.
If you get wet ( say - fall into a stream) - change clothes.
Cold? Make a fire, get dry and warm.
If you do not have the skill set to survive the basic potentially dangerous situation, make sure you learn from others that have those skills and experience first. Do not venture out into the wilderness during cold ( autumn, winter, early spring) alone, without the necessary skills and experience. Simple as that.
Learn your limits, behave accordingly.
The chance of getting accidentally wet, then falling and getting hurt, on a cold day/ night is pretty slim.
In those extreme cases, a woolen layer would not save you.
And what has the fact that I live in the Caribbean have to do with my views?
Do you think the heat here has made my skills won by living in the Arctic disappear?
(Plus, I spend more and more time in the Arctic every year. More in winter ( 6 weeks in total ) than summer ( 2.5 weeks) this year.)
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I think I mentioned it upthread a few years ago, but to reiterate, there are indeed a few cold weather experts who advocate cotton in the cold, snowy weather. That would be the Russian army in WWII. Their basic issue was quilted underwear (the stuffing was cotton) It served them well against the Germans in the crushing Russian winter. Mind though, that others have said, it was dry.
I hope that was not directed at me. I have lots of winter experience but no colder than -47C.
The results gained from Hayward's research into hypothermia required stupidity to mimic what some public insist on doing.
The bottom line is stay dry and stay insulated. Plan for it means planning clothing. I have real winter clothing.
Even experimental clothing that I won't wear until it really does get cold. Will be fun to try it at -30C.
At the same time, I can believe that the wet-cold of UK winters is much worse,
much more dangerous, than the dry cold and snow like sugar that we usually get.
I would have to rethink the wet/dry thing and plan far better than I ever have to do, here and now.
The results gained from Hayward's research into hypothermia required stupidity to mimic what some public insist on doing.
The bottom line is stay dry and stay insulated. Plan for it means planning clothing. I have real winter clothing.
Even experimental clothing that I won't wear until it really does get cold. Will be fun to try it at -30C.
At the same time, I can believe that the wet-cold of UK winters is much worse,
much more dangerous, than the dry cold and snow like sugar that we usually get.
I would have to rethink the wet/dry thing and plan far better than I ever have to do, here and now.
