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Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
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Can you back that statement up? Or is it an opinion stated as fact?
Oh that is too rich coming from you:rolleyes:

Edit to add, Just in case people think I'm rather to harsh on you
From Richard Carrier blog written by a man who held a long correspondence with the man in question
"The book's actual author turns out to be an evangelical preacher named Bob Hostetler (who has also written several books with Josh McDowell), with considerable assistance from this book's co-author, evangelical promoter and businessman Roy Abraham Varghese.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
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From Anthony Flew's wikipedia article:

In 2007, Flew published a book titled There is a God, which was listed as having Roy Abraham Varghese as its co-author. Shortly after the book was released, the New York Times published an article by religious historian Mark Oppenheimer, who stated that Varghese had been almost entirely responsible for writing the book, and that Flew was in a serious state of mental decline, having great difficulty remembering key figures, ideas, and events relating to the debate covered in the book. Where his book praises several philosophers, (like Brian Leftow, John Leslie and Paul Davies), Flew failed to remember their work during the Oppenheimer's interview. The article provoked a public outcry, in which atheist PZ Myers called Varghese "a contemptible manipulator."

A further article by Anthony Gottlieb noted a strong difference in style between the passages giving Flew's biography, and those laying out the case for a god, with the latter including Americanisms such as "beverages", "vacation" and "candy". He came to the same conclusion as Oppenheimer, and stated that "Far from strengthening the case for the existence of God, [the book] rather weakens the case for the existence of Antony Flew".

Not that I particularly care about the opinions of one specific elderly former atheist...
 

Wink

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 4, 2004
129
0
Norfolk
In my opinion realigion and half logic can be deadly... I have been to Iraq and can clearly say that its a great example of too little logic and too much realigion.

I think most people would agree with that. But that does not mean that religion and logic are incompatible. If you read C S Lewis you can see that he goes to great lengths to argue his (Christian) case from a logical standpoint. Whilst the rules on here discourage religious debate, I have read widely differing views by many different posters which reveal a whole variety of philosophical positions. Each of these individuals can probably satisfy themselves that their arguments are logical, but that doesn't mean that they will all agree! For example Dawkins is quite right when he said that, logically, it does not follow that because you enjoy the beauty of a garden there must be fairies at the bottom of it. However, it is also a logical position to conclude that a well-ordered garden is indicative of the presence of a gardener. Logic takes us so far. Philosophy tries to apply this to questions that science does not pretend to address.

These discussions always sound much better with wine and/or a flickering fire to me though! Forums are a bit "cold" for some things...
 

Boston973

Member
Feb 3, 2009
46
0
45
Mass
These discussions always sound much better with wine and/or a flickering fire to me though! Forums are a bit "cold" for some things...

I definetly agree to that. Mesage bourds can show when people are disagreeing and even when they get mad. What they cant show is that by debating many of life mysterys we all learn a bit more. I sapose if it were not for ignorance, fanatics or arogance then many people would not bother learning more facts so they can rebut them. Hence even creationism can further knowledge.

I have a two great and lovely girls, a wife who can alwase make me smile, a cat who knows when i need a hug and every now and then when deep in the forest I can look around and feel like i belong right were I am. Those things make me have faith.
Let science explain the universe and its mysterys. Life and love are enouph to make you beleve in something else.
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
21
60
Bristol
I think most people would agree with that. But that does not mean that religion and logic are incompatible. If you read C S Lewis you can see that he goes to great lengths to argue his (Christian) case from a logical standpoint. ...
Despite all that you read about his "conversion" He was never a christian


At seventeen CS Lewis said
“The gospel as just another myth bringing comfort to the weak minded”

He wrote to his brother years later, explaining that “he became a Christian because for him there was nothing else to do.”

Later in life CS Lewis called his faith “an imaginary faith” discovered only when there was “Money on the table” the money in question was the value he placed on his wife, and how her death convinced him that his faith in the bible and god was misplaced. His faith, his “house of cards” came down around his ears when Joy died. Joy was his wife.

“The case is too plain. If my house has collapsed at one blow, that is because it was a house of cards. The faith which 'took these things into account' was not faith but imagination. The taking them into account was not real sympathy. If I had really cared, as I thought I did, about the sorrows of the world, I should not have been so overwhelmed when my sorrow came. it has been an imaginary faith playing with innocuous counters labelled 'illness,' 'pain,' 'death,' and 'loneliness.'
I thought I trusted the rope until it mattered to me whether it would bear me. Now it matters, and I find it didn't.”
A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
Oh that is too rich coming from you:rolleyes:

Edit to add, Just in case people think I'm rather to harsh on you
From Richard Carrier blog written by a man who held a long correspondence with the man in question
"The book's actual author turns out to be an evangelical preacher named Bob Hostetler (who has also written several books with Josh McDowell), with considerable assistance from this book's co-author, evangelical promoter and businessman Roy Abraham Varghese.

In the article he also states it as his opinion and that he has doubts about things about the book.

So you passed us from your opinion to his opinion. Which means you take on his opinion therefore having none of your own? or you just agree with his opinion which is still just an opinion.

Richard Carrier. hardly an authority on anything is he? He is a big contributor to the secular web which is the biggest haven of skeptics on the net. He also deals with a branch of science that cannot be proven, metaphysical naturalism. He is a man of faith infact his whole worldview is one based on faith as is his discipline. So really, he just thinks things and proves jack
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
21
60
Bristol
In the article he also states it as his opinion and that he has doubts about things about the book.

So you passed us from your opinion to his opinion. Which means you take on his opinion therefore having none of your own? or you just agree with his opinion which is still just an opinion.
I was asked, by you, as it happens for support for my opinion, and posted it, what more did you expect? :tapedshut

I’ve not widely read on Sir Flew, other than what is related to this subject, on that I am willing to concede, however reading the informed judgment of someone held up to public peer review and who has met, corresponded and interacted with the person in question, is a far more reliable source than just cutting and pasting troll like from web links without even bothering to read or try to understand what ‘you’ are “saying”
I’m happy to rely on the testimony of experts, rather than the ranting and blathering of conspiracy theorists and other deluded web denizens.

Trying to tar me with the brush you have been so affectively and accurately tarred with, is an outrageous ploy and as such is a fail.

In the article he also states it as his opinion and that he has doubts about things about the book.

Richard Carrier. hardly an authority on anything is he? He is a big contributor to the secular web which is the biggest haven of skeptics on the net. He also deals with a branch of science that cannot be proven, metaphysical naturalism. He is a man of faith infact his whole worldview is one based on faith as is his discipline. So really, he just thinks things and proves jack
Please provide legitimate evidence for your attack on Richard Carrier. Remembering to base it on what you personally can prove. One rule for all I think
 

Wink

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 4, 2004
129
0
Norfolk
Despite all that you read about his "conversion" He was never a christian


At seventeen CS Lewis said
“The gospel as just another myth bringing comfort to the weak minded”

He wrote to his brother years later, explaining that “he became a Christian because for him there was nothing else to do.”

Later in life CS Lewis called his faith “an imaginary faith” discovered only when there was “Money on the table” the money in question was the value he placed on his wife, and how her death convinced him that his faith in the bible and god was misplaced. His faith, his “house of cards” came down around his ears when Joy died. Joy was his wife.

“The case is too plain. If my house has collapsed at one blow, that is because it was a house of cards. The faith which 'took these things into account' was not faith but imagination. The taking them into account was not real sympathy. If I had really cared, as I thought I did, about the sorrows of the world, I should not have been so overwhelmed when my sorrow came. it has been an imaginary faith playing with innocuous counters labelled 'illness,' 'pain,' 'death,' and 'loneliness.'
I thought I trusted the rope until it mattered to me whether it would bear me. Now it matters, and I find it didn't.”
A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis

Sorry mate, this conveys a clear ignorance about Lewis!

"In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed..." (age 31)

In 1931 (age 33) Lewis recorded in Surprised by Joy: "When we [Warnie and Jack] set out [by motorcycle to the Whipsnade Zoo] I did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did."

So He was a Christian! And he spent most of his life arguing the case for God. It is even in his science fiction and the Narnia books. As for the quotes from "A Grief Observed", this was a book written by Lewis under a pseudonym, in order for him to legitimately express his railings against God in his intense grief and sorrow. Throughout the book he analyses his own statements and sometimes disagrees with them. This is a process that David and other Psalmists also used! The book is not the final word from Lewis, indeed he wrote other Christian material after that. At the end of his life Lewis was still a Christian.

You may not like what he stood for, but please don't post half the story!
 

Wink

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 4, 2004
129
0
Norfolk
I’ve not widely read on Sir Flew, other than what is related to this subject, on that I am willing to concede, however reading the informed judgment of someone held up to public peer review and who has met, corresponded and interacted with the person in question, is a far more reliable source than just cutting and pasting troll like from web links without even bothering to read or try to understand what ‘you’ are “saying”
I’m happy to rely on the testimony of experts, rather than the ranting and blathering of conspiracy theorists and other deluded web denizens.

Howabout Sir Flew in his own words? Enjoy!

http://epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=33
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
What would he be an expert of then? Bear in mind that his world view is one of denial of all things that even come close to being unexplainable? Do not presume to think that i don't know anything mate. At the end of the day any and every one of us on this foum COULD just google half the stuff we post. If you sat and spoke with me though without a computer near you would find that do not actually do that kind of thing. I may post a link etc to something, but they are things i knew about before i posted the link. Judging people on a few posts will never be accurate. you may even think me stupid. I could clear blow you out of the water there though.
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
Metaphysical naturalism is not a "branch of science", it's a philosophical position.

You are correct, my mistake. :) It is a world view that only encompasses the natural sciences especially physics and denies totally everything that can not be proven as natural
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
28
50
Edinburgh
Not quite... It denies the validity of "supernatural" explanations for observable phenomena, and maintains that all phenomena have natural causes which are at least theoretically understandable.
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
Tadpole

Seeing as you avoided the question i'll ask it again.

What is he an expert on?

Bearing in mind that he has a PHD in ancient history, and seems to have spent a lot of his life writing books to prove god does not exist. Hardly a reliable source, his worldview means that all opinions he has are biased towards that view and as such are incomplete. In fact he is no better than a religious nut running round saying god is everything.
 

Chinkapin

Settler
Jan 5, 2009
746
1
83
Kansas USA
The "evolution" thread has been lost. You are now debating the beliefs of Flew, Carrier, Lewis et.al. which are related to evolutionary thought only tangentially.

To believe in evolution is not to automatically be an atheist. Check out Catholic belief on the subject.
 

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