Cold weather layering, how does it work and why? Modern and traditional?

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Bert

Forager
Mar 24, 2016
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Hello,
I'm trying to find out the way's clothing layering works.
I was in the services when they wore an even olive drab uniform, only 100% cotton and wool was issued, and they tought me (just very lightly, not thourough at all) how to use that.
These day's army's have issued much more sophisticated cloth items, both synthetic and natural fiber, and I am very curious how those systems work.
I know the basic principle of layering (like peeling an union) but not the way which materials to combine or not? (When we were in Canada freezing our but off, most of us were experiencing huge electric shocks due to dry air and building static electricity due to the friction of two layers of different material.)

And maybe it could be separated in a Old school (natural fibers) and a Modern (mostly synthetic) section?

And one more; If you are/were in the services, are those clothing Items issued all in the same size? (thinking that they are taking into account that the second layer has to be a bit bigger then the first layer in order to keep you comfortable and not squeezing underneath your arms or so, the Michelin-man feeling.)
 

TLM

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Ha, a very good subject to disagree on. ;) In truth a very good subject but so far I have not found "The right answer" and based on several arguments it does not exist. Still there are better and worse combinations and some that should not be used.
 

Broch

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Jan 18, 2009
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As TLM says, this subject often brings out huge differences in opinion with very little objective data to back theories up and, to be honest, a lot comes down to personal preferences.

As a starter here is a basic review of base layer materials and properties:
 

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C_Claycomb

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Thread title changed to better reflect Bert's opening post.

Bert,
Please let me know if my paraphrasing is right. I do not think that you were actually asking what layering system or clothing type people would recommend, although that appears to be how both TLM and Broch have interpreted your post. Please clarify.

My reading of your post gives the following three questions.
  1. How and why do clothing layer systems work?
  2. How do synthetic layer systems differ in how they work from natural materials?
  3. Are military clothes for cold weather sized for layering?
How and why can be difficult things to answer (just look up "Feynman why magnets repel"). It would be helpful to know why you are asking, whether it is because you want to make good choices for layering, or because you have a technical interest in the mechanics of textiles and thought it would make an interesting discussion.

We could say that layers are meant to trap insulating air, manage its replacement with air from the environment, and manage the movement of moisture from wearer to environment while inhibiting penetration of environmental moisture. Doesn't matter whether it is a base layer, insulation, windproof or waterproof, synthetic or natural, that sentence covers it. Why layers and not just one thing, well, layers allow tuning by addition and removal, you can trap air between layers, and they are easier to make that way.

Probably not of interest but might be to someone:

which is pretty much the same as

All the best

Chris
 

Broch

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Thread title changed to better reflect Bert's opening post.

Bert,
Please let me know if my paraphrasing is right. I do not think that you were actually asking what layering system or clothing type people would recommend, although that appears to be how both TLM and Broch have interpreted your post. Please clarify.

Partly, but by understanding the properties of the first layers one can determine what contribution they make to the whole system and see why some of the older traditional materials, such as cotton, have lost favour (or not in the case of wool and silk).
 

Bert

Forager
Mar 24, 2016
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middle of france
Hello Chris,
While English is not my mothertongue, I have sometimes a bit difficulty in finding the correct words to describe a thing, a situation.

I am busy preparing myself a bit for my dream; passing some time in a very wintery landscape for some time doing some different things. (I have an Idea in my head, but am not sure if I can realise that.)

As I said before, quite a few years back, I was tought the principles of layering.
That was in the days our army wore 100% cotton battle dresses with a 100% wooly pullie.
Since then quite a few years passed by, and new pieces of clothing introduced in most of the different army's and air forces.
For me there is a reason why I stay with (ex)Army equipment, 1) they fit me better than most civilian stuff, 2)I find it more rugged, and cheaper, so if once and a while it rips or something, that is not the biggest of problems. 3) the camo thing; that is almost always more of a problem for the other party it seems.4) I know their sizing systems, and when I need something I can order online and am not so often dissapointed as I would be with civilian stuff where every other day their sizing changes. and you hardly know what you get when it arrives???

then, in what you wrote, you had a very interesting point as well; "whether it is because you want to make good choices for layering, or because you have a technical interest in the mechanics of textiles and thought it would make an interesting discussion. "
That is very true for me as well.

And then, since this is a very wide subject, I think it might be best If we could split this up in two different streams? for instance 1)the sytem used by the armed forces (I think that's synthetic based these days?) And that is already a system (some people have put already some thoughts in it)
and 2) a natural materials (civilian) stream?
 

Robson Valley

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Nov 24, 2014
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I believe the concept is to prevent convection currents from carrying away body heat.
Snug edges to prevent a bellows-like body heat loss. My coats have waist-level drawstrings to stop that.
A soft scarf at the top prevents a chimney effect from developing. Sleeves must have cuffs.

Go to great lengths to protect your extremities from heat loss. Your head and ears as examples.

While travelling, protect your hands with mittens, not gloves.
I have thin gloves with reflective mesh under the mitts.
My mitts are connected by a long cord running through my sleeves.
When I need to take off a mitt, I won't drop it in the snow.
That is strictly Inuit style and I'd do it no other way.

Hot drinks for hydration. You will find it damn difficult to build a good open fire in 4' of snow.
Petrol stoves start at any temperature. Specifically why I bought the Coleman 533.
Melted snow is very similar to distilled water. The lack of mineralization is hard on your guts.
Always add something to the hot water for a drink. I like the various powdered soup stocks.
Guys I know drink hot Jell-O by the gallon.

Boots. All modern synthetics AND, I have three sets of liners so perspiration cold is not a big issue.
-20C, off with my socks, jump in barefoot and off I go.
I have and wear moose-hide mukluk. Felt insole and a couple pairs of wool socks, they are a great pleasure is cold snow like sugar (most of the time).

Look at the clothing worn by your offshore oil rig platform workers.

Practice when you can. Work to get out of the wind. Work to stay dry.
Everything in the above references is very good advice
but it takes several "shake-down" trips to sort it out in your head.
 
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Bert

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Mar 24, 2016
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middle of france
@ Robson Valley
Yes you have quite some good points there, about molten snow and lack of minerals there, I can see that, didn't know that though.
I'm very curious to hear more about this: I have and wear moose-hide mukluk. Felt insole and a couple pairs of wool socks, they are a great pleasure is cold snow like sugar (most of the time).
though I don't really understand this one: Look at the clothing worn by your offshore oil rig platform worker ?
The last few years I tried different army boots,(my preferred footwear), since the standard Dutch army boots I was used to are difficult to get anymore (the real ones)so I tried their replacements, the Meindls, and Altbergs and German M-2000 and on and on, and most of them, being more technical boots to me they don't feel good, so now I ordered a pair of Norwegian M-77 curious how they feel.
 
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TLM

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Not really or it depends. I am so used to it that I don't really think much about it. I am not familiar enough with std British army clothing to much comment but as a guess it should be good to -25 C at least, I guess "arctic" is a category itself. Also the colder it gets the more careful one has to be not to sweat, that is one aspect where layering helps also zippers in strange places.
 

TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
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Look at the clothing worn by your offshore oil rig platform worker
While it can be cold out there I think wind is still the main factor.
The last few years I tried different army boots
Std army non winter boots are mostly not a very good starting point, there actually is a very good reason why winter boots exist.
 
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Robson Valley

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That's why I advocate "practice." Jog a 1/4 miles in knee deep snow (wet or dry).
Learn what worked and what didn't.

I get some 6' hard packed drifts in my back yard.
I'll lend you a snow knife. Get out there and make make me a hot lunch. Please.

I had enough of real cold ( a month of -40C) for many winters, I don't want to stick my beak out the door
at -20C now if I don't have to. I can dress for it and I will be cozy comfortable. I bought Thinsulate gloves.
My hands were wringing wet in cold WX so I threw them all away = too risky.

I can buy -40C rated boots for working the oil drilling rigs. Same with clothing. Heavy but -20C is nothing at all.
DeerB.JPG
 

Herman30

Native
Aug 30, 2015
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I can give one example of my own layering on the upper body for winter.
Merino longsleeve undershirt = https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-merino-wool-long-sleeve-shirt/26146
Depending on temperature a thinner = https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-henley-shirt-merino-wool/33118
or thicker wool sweater = https://europeanarmysurplus.co.uk/t...mbnails/Pullovers & Fleeces/PUSE001-AV-OG.jpg
If extremly cold both.
Wool jacket = https://www.retkeilykauppa24.fi/wp-content/uploads/Särmä-M15-Sarkatakki-oliivinvihreä.jpg
A (thin) wind barrier jacket if it is strong wind.
 
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Erbswurst

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Mar 5, 2018
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The thinner German Army uniforms have next to the body several well fitting sizes, the outer layers just 1 to 4, what means S to XL.
They are constructed to fit over each other, you just keep the inner size and the outer size in mind.

As we also speak and think a bit French here, the Solognac hunting clothing from Decathlon, obviously mainly constructed for France, stay next to the body in one size but hop one size up in the outer layers if you want to create a winter layering system for French or German weather conditions. They don't change models and sizes like the crazy ones and the stuff is pretty similar to German field uniforms, but a bit lighter and in new conditions cheaper. In my opinion just perfect for Dijon for example, even if not offered in the colour mustard. :biggrin:
But I use the stuff everywhere between Berlin and Biarritz and it works very well in all weather conditions in central Europe, even if not delivered in Camouflage Centre-Europe (CCE). French CCE uniforms are made out of a bit heavier fabric by the way, but the Solognac clothing is really OK, and I highly recommend to have a look to it, especially because it's cheap as chips.

I described a Decathlon-Solognac layering system in this thread here, (beginning at #15 with the clothing):

 
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C_Claycomb

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Hey Bert,
Your English is good enough that I only thought that it might not be your native language about an hour after I replied to you! :D



 
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Robson Valley

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Thanks for that budget article link. Deals with each body part in turn.
Heat loss from your head is a big deal, nice to see so many options considered.
You will find that you have favorites. You buy three and wear the same head gear, day after day.

I've just laid my hands on the coats, hats, boots, mitts, gloves and pants that I'll probably need next week.
My raincoat and all my light jackets are living in the far back of the closet now.
 

z_bumbi

Tenderfoot
Apr 22, 2016
94
46
Linköping, Sweden
The Swedish army use the same size för every layer so if using the varmest outer layer with a t-shirt under it gets a bit large.
The layers are:
*a tshirt (i think cotton)
*plats short leg (i think)
*Longjohns/shirt in woolfrotte 200 g. Its a mix of wool and syntetics and the shirt have to be the most used outdoor item in Sweden. My wife have around 8 shirts..
*A shirt in woolfrotte in 400 g.
*M90 jacket and trousers. The camouflage outer layer most soldiers use year round. Cotton and syntetics.
*Koma-jacket and trousers. Koma is a nickname as its used when tired, frozen and basicly in a coma.

There is variations and some more modern materials but a big part of the system is that to limit burns. For civilians use most of the stuff have its use but I pick some and leave the rest.

There is also a rainjacket och trousers which are a bit heavy but good.

There is boots, wellingtons, hats and gloves but I haven't used those that is use today so I haven't got a clue how they are.

I have the old boots "m90", rainjacket, koma-rock. My wife have ullfrotte shirts in both weights, longjohns and the m90 trousers. None of us have served so its only för civilians use.
 
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Billy-o

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Apr 19, 2018
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I know that electric shock :lol: Wool on wool gets round it, but it is a bit limiting as an approach in terms of what you can wear for lightness.

Just to add two points -

As well as being tunable/adaptable and trapping trapping air for warmth, layered clothes also have to be able to wick a bit in order to manage perspiration. Ideally, properly layered up, you shouldn't ever over heat, managing temperature by just taking things off, putting things back on. But this proves often to be a faff, and you often will overheat ... if required to suddenly leg up a bit of tricky and steep offtrail terrain for instance that is a bit more of a slog than you anticipate. So, a wicking baselayer (wool or some grid-type synthetic) helps, plus a layered succession of wicking materials that will provide a route out for the wet to the outer layer.

Also, buy clothes in a variety of sizes. If you imagine say a 200gsm merino shirt to be a base layer, buy it to be a close fit or squeeze to get on. Close fit is more effective wickingly, plus makes for easier movement. For me that's an L-size. Buy the same shirt at XL if you imagine it working as a midlayer to go over the base or if you just want a looser comfier fit. ... etc. Same with bottoms, and obviously same with outer layers. If you have a few layers on, your outer may need to go up a size.

Woolpower I think still cut their wool baselayers to be slightly bigger the heavier the wool. So, a 400 gsm top size-L is cut to wear over a 200gsm top also size-L. Also, companies like Arcteryx take that sizing into account at the design stage when thinking of the expected condions of use for a garment. For instance, the Alpha FL size-L jacket fits to go over a t-shirt. The Alpha AR jacket fits to go over several layers including a down jacket. Still described as size-L though. Fjallraven don't do this, so I have size-L and size-XL jackets from them.
 
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Bert

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Mar 24, 2016
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It is quite a read, but you get what I mean, thanks for the suggestions.
yes, Billy-O The sizing was one of my questions. I don't know about civie world, but I assume (still don't know for sure) that the army issues the same size (say a size "L") for underwear, camo layer, wooly pully and smock and rain gear, and then you start to put on the underwear, after that the camo layer, wooly pully etc. Wouldn't it be a silly (stupid) thing if all of this has the same circumference (around the shoulders for example) as the underwear? Or one of the layers has an enormous surplus of tissue under the armpits where the other has not? (and so provokes friction and uncomfortable wear?

So, I assume that the layers will be designed to fit without friction or tight stretch on certain points while keeping the same indication of size? (in this case "L")

some other points; many a "longjohn" has a very very roomy area where you normally wear a slip,boxer or whatever, and very tight around the chins underneath the knee. Am I right in that?

I used for a (very) little moment these 100% polyester UK Army brown t-shirts with all the small holes, these are supposed to wick perspiration.
I don't know what your experiences are with those, I found them adding extra warmth in the summer up to a point that it was really unpleasant to wear them, apart from that, after wearing them for a few hours you smelled like a pig! (normally not so!:)) )

And with regular army boots, while entering cold from the sides is not too bad, I noticed that many boots transfer cold through the soles, and not every boot is constructed to add a thick wool or felt inner soles.
On this subject, with wet cold +5*C to -8*C leather boots will quicly become wet, and so cold. regular wellies, are very uncomfortable due to the stropping of the sock, and not being able to breath, transpiration and freezing of that moist. even if you have the better wellies made of neoprene rubber.

Oh yes, before I forget, In the old days, and even recently for certain armies, they issued these cotton and nylon mesh t-shirts, a string of cotton, sewed to another string of cotton by means of very thin nylon tread, almost fishing wire, I know that the Belgian and Danish army's used it, anyone here any experience with them?
 
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Scots_Charles_River

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To me it's all about layering based on what you are doing eg sitting in a canoe gently paddling versus belaying a climber up a mountain after climbing and sweating buckets.

So layering allows for breathability and warmth.

Walking uphill to go winter climbing is the hardest thing to get layers right as it may be wet snow blowing in but your cooking from the effort carrying all that kit. So you have three or four different gloves alone.

Breathability is key. Two thin thermal layers in synthetics works well in winter. On long sleeves one short sleeved. To me softshell has made a huge difference.
 

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