Clothing that works in sustained Wet conditions

[Paul_B]

I once had a jacket made by Montane out of their own denier weave with almost a fine pile effect inside. They then switched to a custom version of pertex equilibrium made just for them. It was out before Rab's vapour rise and was like that system not fully windproof. Back then buffalo described their double p as windproof not resistant up to a certain wind speed? As a result it was warm for such a thin layer, little thicker than a pertex classic windshirt, but it absolutely coped with moisture transmission through it. Faster than base layers such that the outside of my base layer was drier than the side b against the skin. That's Merino or a synthetic from odlo. It's probably good enough as a base layer.

It stopped being made after a few redesigns and changes including a new fit which no longer fitted me.

As to alpha, it's possibly just a repackaging of a few ideas or designs possibly to enable a marketing angle. I think the main outdoor fabric suppliers seem to have periods of high use and low use such that say polartec has the latest wonder fabric/material and brands everywhere are rushing out with increasing numbers of clothing using it. Then it's quiet and they've moved to pertex or IIRC pontoporto the Italian fabric manufacture or gore's membrane based windproof fleece.

Someone with links to a certain brand popular over here with a good reputation once told me that the gore Tex windproof fleeces were made with the original generation goretex membrane. W L Gore realised that first version of their waterproof fabric actually didn't completely work. The membrane leaked. They developed generation 2 membrane which did work and everything was ok. However they had this leaky membrane and decided to market it as a wind proof layer between fleeces. The holes were later kind of developed to increase breathability without affecting Windstopping and IIRC it became powershield or something like that. It's interesting how they develop new things I reckon.

 

[Billy-o]

Yes, I think you are right. Also, it looks like the US military have turned to Alpha as something that will work in their current theatres. What I mean is, rather than being a market experiment, there may just be an awful lot of Alpha about now and into the foreseeable future, and it kind of works OK. It is probably here for a while.

(I just saw that Polartec, who make Alpha, also make the stuff that Patagonia are using in the R2. The R2 was what I was going to get til I saw an affordable Rab)

 

[TLM]

that double P style works partly on a physical way in that there's a positive and negative differential which also assists in moisture transmission from inside to the outer layer which then disperses it across a wider area

If capillary forces are the main moisture transport if nothing takes it away it stops, the idea was to spread it to larger area on the outside surface where it evaporates away and then capillary forces start to work again. Theory that works when the outside air is dry. If it is raining the system just stops. Which is the problem with other systems too, DWR helps but still if relative humidity is 100% nothing much evaporates anywhere.

Can´t believe how complicated dressing one self has become if one is to believe everything that is written here.

There exists a few physical means of moisture transport, not that many. Everybody has to use these same means and as they want to distinguish from their competitors they must invent weird names. Using commercial names for materials instead of generic chemical ones does not help either.

 

[Paul_B]

The point with buffalo is that it works for some time then you wet out but stay warm. Warm and wet is still safe enough in real term use. I've worn buffalo in torrential rain for best part of 2 hours and apart from rain down the neck wet where the shoulder seams were I was actually bone dry. I was wearing a layer underneath it that wasn't that wicking and showed up wet patches as darker. So I know it was good enough for that spell out and about.

As to wearing it as designed I've yet to feel the complete wetting out. Even in British wet climate you rarely get persistent, heavy rainfall more bursts of it with either dry spells or spells or light rain. Any let up and I think buffalo transmission action works again and skin dries. I find it amazing how quickly it dries.

Like paramo it's really moving moisture to the outside surface quickly. Paramo trousers in winter once dried my walking trousers out from a complete wetting out in a yarn under the snow. It happened in about 15 minutes. Last Sunday a rucksack sweat patch on my buffalo dried in even fewer minutes. It doesn't have to be working all the time. It can get overwhelmed and still keep you safe in bad weather. Membrane jackets get overwhelmed and you're in a boil in the bag or getting very cold when stopped. That happens in less severe conditions than buffalo starts to wet out too IME.

If you can't stay dry and warm then next best is always wet and warm. Wetsuit principle works well.

 

[TLM]

Moisture wants to travel towards lower vapor pressure when not wicked. If the conditions exist it works. Never worn Buffalo just tried it on but apparently the pile's absorbing capacity for moisture is enough for most conditions.

 

[Herman30]

What is this "buffalo" that pops up now and then here? Surely not the animal?

PS. I have for quite a few years now stayed away from man-made fibres and concentrated on merinowool in underwear. Briefs in cotton.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Can´t believe how complicated dressing one self has become if one is to believe everything that is written here.

How the process began!

 

[Billy-o]

Sadly, they soon killed off all the best ones, but microfibre-bearing species thought to be long extinct, like the Brannan bear, for instance, are making appearances now.

 

[Paul_B]

What is this "buffalo" that pops up now and then here? Surely not the animal?

PS. I have for quite a few years now stayed away from man-made fibres and concentrated on merinowool in underwear. Briefs in cotton.

About buffalo double P - pile Pertex softshell system.

 

[Laurentius]

I find the best trick is to have a woolen layer somewhere either a merino base layer, or a wooly pully, or pendleton shirt, and a windproof on top.

 

[Herman30]

I find the best trick is to have a woolen layer somewhere either a merino base layer, or a wooly pully, or pendleton shirt, and a windproof on top.

Funny, this sounds like what I´m wearing when outside these days, temperature 5-10 Celsius.
I wear a sleeveless merino wool undershirt, dutch wool fleece (80% wool) and a Arktis A192 stowaway shirt.

Dutch wool fleece:

 

[adriatikfan]

Funny, this sounds like what I´m wearing when outside these days, temperature 5-10 Celsius.
I wear a sleeveless merino wool undershirt, dutch wool fleece (80% wool) and a Arktis A192 stowaway shirt.

Dutch wool fleece:

Did you size up from your normal size on the Arktis to go over that Dutch fleece.

That looks a very cost effective combination.

David

 

[Herman30]

I´m an overweight guy so I don´t buy tight fitting clothes.

 

[Rorschach]

Merino under and double ventile on top.

 

[leatherneck]

No. Look it up I have a used Rab Alpha Direct on the way. I'll let you know its properties. What I do know is that a new one would cost 250CAD; a Buffalo Belay with a hood, 400CAD.


....and the Flash now really is making me wish I had something burning a hole in my pocket.

What are your thoughts on the Rab Alpha Direct after having owned it for awhile? Think it's a great option for wet weather layering?

 

[demographic]

During the last three months (maybe more,I've not checked my diary) I've been working near Windermere in the Lake District. It's wet there, a lot.
During that period I reckon I've maybe spent about two weeks working inside a building and the rest of the time (at least ten weeks) has been outside at a reasonable level of activity but not running or walking up mountains either.
Fair bit of that time working on rooves.

Its been Mountain Warehouse Isocool T shirts, with the light fleeces they make and on top I've used a Gore Tex jacket in railway orange.

That setup has kept me mostly dry, occasionally sweaty.
On my legs I've worn Blaklader aramid denim mix strides and my legs have on many days got wet.
I can't stand waterproof keks though and I'll likely continue living with that.

I keep hearing various ways to keep dry and not so many of them tie in with what happens at work.
One jacket I have is mostly cotton with a Gore Tex layer, thats good because it soaks up the water that hits my top half and doesn't shed it onto my legs. Its also fireproof, sparkproof, and is the type of thing worn by cable jointers for the lecky services. Its also long enough that it lessens water getting into my tool bags I wear on my workbelt.
Another jacket is shorter and more of a bomberjacket style, that lets water wet my tool bags but also allows better access for my hands to get stuff out of my toolbags.

 

[Herman30]

One jacket I have is mostly cotton with a Gore Tex layer.

Please tell more about this, brand, model, whatever....Because it does not make sence combining g-tex with a fabric that sucks water like a sponge.

 

[Great egret]

I wear a merino baselayer, if needed a wool sweater, and a wool jacket. A wool jacket will take some rain with no problem but when raining hard for a long time i will just wear a 100% waterproof jacket with a lot of zippers. So no goretex or any other overpriced "technical" gear.

 

[MrEd]

I'm trying out an Italian army base layer from Endicotts this winter, we'll see how it goes. 51% wool.

I think something under rated here that hasn't been mentioned is spare dry clothing.

I know from mtb'ing through winter the past two years it's very easy to stay warm when you are moving but when you stop, have a sweat on and/or rained on you cool down mighty fast. No shell can really help out in this instance.

i have the Italian army base layers from endicots, took a couple of washes to get the less itchy. They work okay as a base layer for me, I wear one of them, a buffalo then a goretex shell. Nice and warm and as dry as I need to be.
Sometimes in interchange the buffalo with a wool jumper I have had years, if it’s less change of wet, or if I am sittinf around a lot

 

[punkrockcaveman]

I've not used the italian army top much as I've shrunk it and find it itchy but the long John's are great, with summer weight trousers makes a great combo on cold days in winter especially slowly foraging.