Cheaper alternative to meths ?

[Midnitehound]

Im a converted Methanol user.
You can get 10l for £22 delivered off the bay.!!!

It is worth becoming familiar with the toxicity issues with regard to Methanol, I know you probably already are RE8ELD0G, but some others are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Toxicity

One of the cures is to pour as much ethanol down someone's throat as soon as possible! I wonder if anyone has ever tried staggering into a pub and screaming that they have Methanol poisoning!

I know someone who makes bio-diesel and buys Methanol in cheaper 205 bulk quantities, like 70p/l!! I think I may have a word. Perhaps worth bringing a Jerry can to the Moot.

Energy density of Methanol is only about 2/3 of Ethanol. I think IPA is much closer to ethanol in energy density, not the beer!

 

[Midnitehound]

It isnt illegal. As far as I know its perfectly legal since 2007 to make (For personal use) upto 2500 liter's of biofuel at home without paying any tax.

Yep, I believe that is correct for Bio-diesel from vegetable oil. I'm not so sure about bio-ethanol. Bulk bioethanol is about £2/l delivered off ebay.

 

[Midnitehound]

isopropal (spelling) alcohol is what i use, but i dont pay for it, i manage to get it from work...

Do you find it is very sooty when you use it? It should have an energy density much closer to Ethanol than Methanol.

There is an interesting thread here I just whizzed past about mixing alcohols like Methanol and IPA in a 50/50 ratio.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...rums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=9395

 

[mountainm]

Now that is very interesting, have you got a reference on that because that would be good thing to know? You are going to say Google is my friend aren't you?

My mistake. Legal in the US for fuel but unfortunately not in the uk.

 

[ADz-1983]

Yep, I believe that is correct for Bio-diesel from vegetable oil. I'm not so sure about bio-ethanol. Bulk bioethanol is about £2/l delivered off ebay.

Got a linky please bud?

 

[Midnitehound]

Got a linky please bud?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bio-Ethan...lacesMantelpieces_RL&var=&hash=item27dcd83510

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bio-ethan...FireplacesMantelpieces_RL&hash=item2c7ae41add

I did say bulk! I'm guessing that is what you were referring to.

You could split it around a group.

It would be useful if there was a nice trusted member in Bridgend that would be willing to take a few bulk orders of such things to split between 200+ attendees to save us all some money.

 

[Firebow Swagger]

Meths is Methanol but with an added ingredient to make you sick, as methanol makes you drunk ..and Blind , Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water Meths at 75oC ish and ethanol at around 80oC so when boiling with a still the first 100 or so ml is the nasty stuff as it boils off first ....er ...apparently

 

[rik_uk3]

like I said around £3 a litre for bio ethanol.

all depends how it burns too there's not much of a saving if it takes twice as long to cook anything.

how do bio e and ethanol compare to meths in the field?

Why would it take twice as long? Methanol does burn 'cooler' than ethanol but not enough to be noticeable in real life, certainly with a real trangia or when using effishient pots, type with the built in heat exchanger.

Canadian 'Mushers' use methanol for Musher stoves to melt water and food.

 

[rik_uk3]

Methanol is 'wood alcohol' and is no more dangerous than other liquid fuels so long as you don't drink it or wash in it.

If you looked at the hazard sheets on any liquid fuel you'd never use any of them again. Its down to common sense. It amazes me that every time methanol is mentioned as a good fuel for stoves and marine heaters people jump on a high fence to deliver a diatribe on this 'dangerous fuel'.

An extremely popular choice for alcohol stoves in North America is Heet which in reality is methanol...how do all these yanks survive?

 

[bilmo-p5]

Well said, Richard.

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[Midnitehound]

Meths is Methanol but with an added ingredient to make you sick, as methanol makes you drunk ..and Blind , Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water Meths at 75oC ish and ethanol at around 80oC so when boiling with a still the first 100 or so ml is the nasty stuff as it boils off first ....er ...apparently

Meths (Methylated Spirits) is not Methanol, it is Denatured Alcohol (Ethanol) often with some Methanol added among other things to discourage consumption.

 

[Midnitehound]

Methanol is 'wood alcohol' and is no more dangerous than other liquid fuels so long as you don't drink it or wash in it.

If you looked at the hazard sheets on any liquid fuel you'd never use any of them again. Its down to common sense. It amazes me that every time methanol is mentioned as a good fuel for stoves and marine heaters people jump on a high fence to deliver a diatribe on this 'dangerous fuel'.

An extremely popular choice for alcohol stoves in North America is Heet which in reality is methanol...how do all these yanks survive?

Nobody jumped on a high fence, whatever that is, though if anything people normally jump over them! There was no diatribe except for your ill-considered outburst. There is nothing wrong with gently reminding or informing people when someone suggests an alternative that they need to have some background knowledge.

The WHOLE point is that Methanol IS more dangerous if you drink, inhale or wash in it, and is often in a pure form so difficult to differentiate from ethanol! Many people get Meths all over their hands when using it and leave it around where children could access it. Adults, children and others don't usually have the 'unCOMMON' sense/knowledge that Methanol can kill and blind in very small quantities. Meths will make someone ill, Methanol can blind and kill, it is irresponsible to not gently point that out to those that may not know or to attack people for doing so. I'm guessing you don't have to deal with COSHH in your job as a Scientist! I could have said things more strongly but I think that will suffice. :twak:

 

[Mandos]

not boosting but id like to point out to people i am currently doing my first year of a foundation degree in chemistry

Meths (Methylated Spirits) is not Methanol, it is Denatured Alcohol (Ethanol) often with some Methanol added among other things to discourage consumption.

 

[Shewie]

If you have a Mica hardware store near you they will fill a 5L container with meths for around £9, that's about the best price I've found unless you buy huge quantities. It's yellow rather than purple and smells a bit different, burns fine in the stoves though.

 

[Midnitehound]

not boosting but id like to point out to people i am currently doing my first year of a foundation degree in chemistry

................. :BlueTeamE

Congratulations on starting your degree. I would highly recommend keeping an eye on Professor Pollack's (HOD Washington Uni.) very impressive work on water. Always good to be on the cutting edge and may stand you in good stead in the future. There is a sea change approaching that will hit all the Sciences.
[video=youtube;eS4PkR_BkRo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo[/video]
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnGCMQ8TJ_g All significant but particularly so for Chemists after 15 minutes.

Perhaps one day water will be a viable alternative to Meths and most other things, it is certainly cheaper!

 

[santaman2000]

.....The WHOLE point is that Methanol IS more dangerous if you drink, inhale or wash in it, and is often in a pure form so difficult to differentiate from ethanol! Many people get Meths all over their hands when using it and leave it around where children could access it. Adults, children and others don't usually have the 'unCOMMON' sense/knowledge that Methanol can kill and blind in very small quantities......

More dangerous than what? My stoves and lanterns are dual fuel (coleman fuel and/or gasoline) And my grandkids (and most kids I know) definitely know not to drink it. Although back when I was a kid (and even a teen) it was common to use either to wash oil and grease from ones hands; and to start a siphon by sucking on the hose until you had to spit gasoline or diesel from your mouth. We all lived. Not the smartest thing we ever did, but we did live.

 

[Mandos]

Guys c'mon this isnt about which is dangerous its about what is the cheaper alternative !
if you want to argue about the chemical composition and which is more dangerous be my guest to do it over in your own posts/private messages ! don't come on here and moan when i asked about what is cheaper not what is more dangerous !

 

[santaman2000]

Guys c'mon this isnt about which is dangerous its about what is the cheaper alternative !
if you want to argue about the chemical composition and which is more dangerous be my guest to do it over in your own posts/private messages ! don't come on here and moan when i asked about what is cheaper not what is more dangerous !

My apologies, you're absolutely right.

 

[Midnitehound]

More dangerous than what? My stoves and lanterns are dual fuel (coleman fuel and/or gasoline) And my grandkids (and most kids I know) definitely know not to drink it. Although back when I was a kid (and even a teen) it was common to use either to wash oil and grease from ones hands; and to start a siphon by sucking on the hose until you had to spit gasoline or diesel from your mouth. We all lived. Not the smartest thing we ever did, but we did live.

I would hope they would know not to drink Gasoline!!! People drink Ethanol and sometimes Methanol by mistake and on purpose, not Gasoline! With respect the fact that you ask the question suggests you haven't read all of the thread carefully.

I should imagine the risks of Gasoline/Diesel poisoning by accidental ingestion are a little lower than for Methanol! Children usually have limited access to Methanol unless of course:

http://www.hindawi.com/crim/nephrology/2014/652129/ Luckily this had a good outcome.

Sucking on Methanol can cause blindness etc.. It is more dangerous than Meths for the various reasons I have said. I really don't get this nitpicking, are you advocating that people use chemicals with no understanding of safe handling? If I allowed someone to handle chemicals in the lab with no understanding of the COSHH specifications I could be prosecuted and worse they could get injured. Methanol is a hazardous liquid, like many, and to advocate allowing people to use it without understanding the COSHH implications is, as I have said, highly irresponsible and illogical. To nitpick and criticise someone for calmly advising people in one original line to be aware is laughable.

Oh never mind. Methanol is obviously a cheaper viable alternative particularly if you can get it from a biodiesel bod that is ordering it in bulk and won't charge you much for a small quantity from his stock. Asking around will usually find one. As I have said, for some of those lurking or reading in the future, there are additional safety considerations when using Methanol rather than Meths that a responsible person should make themselves aware of for their own health and the health of those around them. IPA can also be used but can produce a sooty burn. Industrial Ethanol is very difficult to get hold of for most people because it is restricted. It is cheap and clean so good luck to you if you can wangle a source.

Fast panel wipe is also clean burning, can be cheap depending upon the source and is better for you and your stove than using petrol. It can't be used in a Meths stove though as it is effectively Coleman Fuel and therefore the fumes would be explosive in use in open stoves. That said, if you can follow Shewie's Meths source advice then that sounds like a good price.

 

[Mandos]

................. :BlueTeamE

Congratulations on starting your degree. I would highly recommend keeping an eye on Professor Pollack's (HOD Washington Uni.) very impressive work on water. Always good to be on the cutting edge and may stand you in good stead in the future. There is a sea change approaching that will hit all the Sciences.
[video=youtube;eS4PkR_BkRo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo[/video]
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnGCMQ8TJ_g All significant but particularly so for Chemists after 15 minutes.

Perhaps one day water will be a viable alternative to Meths and most other things, it is certainly cheaper!

Thanks for the info !

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