Changing attitudes about firearms

[BigShot]

British Red...
...If you want to swap the sage words in your signature for the ones I wrote I don't suppose I'd mind. Seems like some sort of honour or compliment actually - I'm not sure I've been quoted before.
I wonder if it'll become one of those famous quotes people use for years to come.
Does this mean I'll get my own wikipedia page now?
Haha.

All I need to find now is someone who likes the quote enough to take me on a shoot as a reward - deer would be nice - any takers? Haha!

I'm starting to want guns more and more now. I reckon a good air rifle, a real rifle and a shotgun would see me good. I can go after just about whatever I like that way!
Think I'll have to start with air though - for some reason I don't want to go through the whole application process to get the Shotgun and FAC, install the lockers and all that malarkey - especially without a permission to get to work on right away.

 

[wicca]

Ah Dogwood I stand corrected then. When Oblio mentioned ' the axe and rifle' I was thinking of a much earlier time in history when the majority of the population would have been so equipped. Pest control, whether of American coyotes or English foxes is indeed a reason for 'tools for the job' if it's to be done humanely.
I have to confess I'm surprised that a significant proportion of the US population still hunt purely for survival purposes and not just to stock the larder. At least a 'proportion significant' enough to convince the rest of the population that firearms are not..primarily..kept for leisure purposes. American hunters, farmers and ranchers, Uk Gamekeepers and all the other well balanced and responsible shooting people on both sides of the Atlantic can shout until they are blue in the face, but in my humble opinion it only takes one nutcase in an English High street, A scottish school or someone dressed as Santa Claus to convince the rest of the population that all gun owners are a potential ...criminal... threat.

 

[BigShot]

Wicca...
You're dead right about how easy it is to convince the uneducated majority of the population that anyone who wants a gun is a Hamilton waiting to happen.
But then - with a bit of outrage, spin and a few floating heads one could probably convince the unthinking masses of just about anything.

I'm not entirely sure, but are you saying it is not a good thing that people own guns and shoot for pleasure? Or something else?
If so - why?
If something else - what?

I'm not trying to draw you into anything, or trying to be confrontational, I'm just wondering what you're saying (or not saying) about the recreation and leisure aspect of firearm ownership.

 

[Chinkapin]

I can't speak for what has happened in the U.K. or what might happen in the future. However, here in the U.S. in my lifetime we have went from a country in which hunting and shooting were considered useful and desirable exercises that were encouraged by all, including the federal government. There was a time, not many years ago, that if you were an NRA member (the NRA was chartered by Congress, I believe) you could purchase military rifles from the government at prices that were so low it was virtually for free. All of that has ended. Starting in the sixties with rising urban crime there began a very vocal onslaught against any kind of guns. more recently, we have begun to drift more and more toward being what has been called a "nanny" state. ( we are all to ignorant to take care of ourselves and the state must protect us from ourselves). e.g. helmet laws for cyclists, seat belt laws, etc. Not that seat belts are not good and desirable, but we used to let those who wanted to wear them, wear them and those that didn't, didn't. It was called freedom. It has been slowly eroding for many years. I judge that from what I see expressed here on this site you are ahead of the curve in the U.K but we are probably not far behind.

 

[dogwood]

Wicca, I agree completely with your comments about how people react when a lunatic opens fire on innocents.

However on this...

I have to confess I'm surprised that a significant proportion of the US population still hunt purely for survival purposes and not just to stock the larder. At least a 'proportion significant' enough to convince the rest of the population that firearms are not..primarily..kept for leisure purposes.

....I should clarify my comments about the American situation.

When I say the hunting is an essential activity for a portion of the population, it's not exactly the same as saying they need to hunt for "survival" outright. They'll survive without it, but the quality of life will be noticeably degraded.

In other words, some people in some places have incomes that are low enough that game in the freezer makes a *big* difference for them financially (now the kids can have new shoes, for example...) In these regions, it's part of what you need to do to prosper -- those places tend to be far from the media capitals thus this population doesn't get its stories told so well.

I would define this as meaningful hunting, not recreational.

And because hunting has been such an important part of the American experience (the West was opened up because of hunting and the fur trade) and has continued until this day, it just becomes a part of the national character.

Because America is so urbanized now, the vast majority of people (probably 90%) don't *need* to hunt. However, where it is necessary, it's a big and important issue that touches directly on quality of life. I could take you to counties in West Virginia where 30% of kids could literally go without a winter coat if their parents couldn't hunt.

Besides, if the global economy gets any worse, we shall all end up returning to a hunter gatherer society and those of us on this forum will find a new urgency for our skills

 

[dogwood]

However, here in the U.S. in my lifetime we have went from a country in which hunting and shooting were considered useful and desirable exercises that were encouraged by all, including the federal government.

True words!

Of course, in some places because of our screwy wildlife policy that allowed the over hunting of predators, there are places (like west Texas) where hunting is still absolutely essential and encouraged to manage the size of the deer population.

 

[British Red]

I'm starting to want guns more and more now. I reckon a good air rifle, a real rifle and a shotgun would see me good. I can go after just about whatever I like that way!
Think I'll have to start with air though - for some reason I don't want to go through the whole application process to get the Shotgun and FAC, install the lockers and all that malarkey - especially without a permission to get to work on right away.

There's a decent rifle club in Warrington that will let you shoot club guns for a low "probationer" fee - they sell ammo on site etc. too and will instruct in safe and accurate use.

Why not pop along and try the sport out? That way you don't need an "up front investment"

Oh - and check the sig line

 

[Canalvoyageur]

I have to admit I gave up my guns after the Hungerford thing.

I could see what was coming and some of my friends that hung on until after Dunblaine got really clobbered when they lost their guns then.

Shame it hasn't made the slightest bit of difference to gun crime stats.

Do you think all those crooks know they're breaking the law? :bluThinki

At a Gun Club I used to attend back in the 70's had a notice displayed in the Shop, it read, :- "OutLaw Guns", and only "Outlaw's will have Gun's", How True.
Regards Bill

 

[Klenchblaize]

I guess maybe the waters are muddied by the proliferation of handguns and "assault weapons"* that people own these days. Do you need a fully automatic rifle to hunt rabbits? Is there any need to carry a .357 magnum to the grocery store? Perhaps if responsible gun owners disassociated themselves from the more extreme rhetoric of the NRA etc the debate might move forward?

*yes, I know the definition is a tricky one but I think there is a gap between a .22 "one for the pot" weapon and an AK47.

I'll keep this brief and as uncontroversial as is at all possible given the subject matter - being only too familiar with how such threads can develop. But that said I cannot let such a statement pass without observing that here in the UK we could do with some of the energy and drive displayed by the NRA across the big pond. Sure, they take things to extremes, but oh how I delight in their unapologetic passion.

Best not say any more guess!

K

 

[Wallenstein]

I'll keep this brief and as uncontroversial as is at all possible given the subject matter - being only too familiar with how such threads can develop. But that said I cannot let such a statement pass without observing that here in the UK we could do with some of the energy and drive displayed by the NRA across the big pond. Sure, they take things to extremes, but oh how I delight in their unapologetic passion.

Best not say any more guess!

K

Guess we'll disagree then... I quite like going to Tesco knowing the people aren't wandering around with loaded guns on their belts.

"If guns are outlawed... only outlaws will accidently shoot themeslves in the foot"

Just my opinions, not claiming I'm right by any means.

 

[Armleywhite]

I do tire of "townies" who perpetrate cruelty and destroy wildlife by buying intensively farmed meat and monoculture vegetables trying to end the ways by which meat animals can live natural and free lives by being too lazy to actually find out about hunting, farming and general country life. Including the fact that pest control with a rifle is far kinder than by posion or trap.

Oh, I'll run out now and get a rifle for that mouse problem I have. Whilst being a "townie" and ex squaddie that was trained, very well, in the use of a lot of weapons I find that comment very elitest to say the least. In an ideal world It would be great if people could be educated in the better side of farming etc. However, for a lot of "townies" the fact that they have a few quid a week to live on negates the fact they "should learn" a new way of living. Getting meat and veg from the SM is the only way some of them get any decent nutrition into them. Too lazy? offs.

 

[traderran]

I believe I will pass on this. As I am a gun owner and always be one.

 

[swyn]

Interesting point there!

You would have been a wealthy chap in the days of ball and black powder, simply being able to afford a gun!

 

[Toddy]

Personally I don't see the divide. I live in one of the most urbanised countries in the Western world but twenty minutes from 'any' front door and we can be in countryside or coast.

I think that what is needed to restore a balance to the polarised arguement is education backed by personal experience.
It's one thing to say to a child, "Milk comes from cows."
It's quite another to trail a class of kids around a farm to see the cows up close, stroke the calves, watch the milking, or hand them a still warm egg from a chicken they've just fed.
Wander along the edges of fields and see the oats and wheat that makes their breakfast cereal actually growing.
The visceral realitiy of the slaughterhouse ought to be a rite of passage for anyone who eats meat.

Hunting, trapping, shooting (archery counts ) and fishing have been part of the human survival toolkit for millenia, to lose those skills would be like losing a part of ourselves (and I don't eat meat, I don't actively hunt, I do still feel the need to know how, to be accurate, skillful and knowledgeable; to understand )

The reality of modern life is that for 90% of the population these skills have no relevance to their lives. Guns, especially handguns, have only one use, and that is as weapons.
If all those handguns disappeared tomorrow only a few collectors and sportsmen would notice.

Rifles ? well the estimate is 60,000 too many deer on the hills. A few estates make money out of shooting parties, I reckon they'd be better off just farming the beasts like cattle or sheep. The skins make good leather, there's a market for the antlers and the other bits and pieces as well as the meat.......ah, but then in steps the Game Dealer. Our perception of shooting as a sport for the hoi polloi is partially correct, only those who are licenced are able to sell those meats reserved for 'sport'.
Rabbits, rats, grey squirrels, pigeons, water fowl, foxes.......a quick clean shot is better than widescale poison any day.

Maybe we really need a thorough shake up of the entire system.
Clear out the whole messy shebang; start afresh.

Hunting seasons clearly stated, suitable weapons specified, new licencing systems and accreditations in place. Change the perceptions, really teach our children about the flora and fauna of our islands, the balance we need to maintain between wild and domesticated, the scavengers and the 'sport'.

Traderran twenty years ago many in Europe said the same as you have; what happens when the licencing authorities start asking 'why' you need a rifle ?
Different countries, different customs.

Oblio your friend is a very fortunate man if he has managed to do that to himself and still has a useable foot. He's also fortunate that he is in a part of the world with good healthcare facilities. I firmly suspect that Firecrest's analysis of the attitude of the others who heard of the incident, and thought hell mend him, is spot on.


MOD HAT ON

The courtesy shown on this thread is the only reason it is still open. In reality it has become a political discussion
Think twice, post once, please. I'm going to shift it to Other Chatter since it really isn't Bushcraft Chatter.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Matt.S]

There's a decent rifle club in Warrington that will let you shoot club guns for a low "probationer" fee - they sell ammo on site etc. too and will instruct in safe and accurate use.

Is that Appleton RC by any chance? 50meter/yard and 100-yard ranges in a quarry, houses almost hanging over the cliff edge and some dodgy meat pies being sold from the refreshment hut?

Guess we'll disagree then... I quite like going to Tesco knowing the people aren't wandering around with loaded guns on their belts.

You like going to Tesco?

What makes you think that people aren't carrying guns? It might be illegal, but the law doesn't stop criminals. Guns are easy to manufacture or import illegally, and there are a lot lying around 'forgotten about' since before 1920 (when firearm certificates became required), or 1968 (when shotguns became licensed), not to mention the number of 'bring backs' from WW2 etc. (My next-door neighbour for many years had her dad's Luger he took off a German officer who no longer needed it in WW1. She handed it in in 1997. The police did not bother to tell her that she could have kept it on a FAC that would have been granted her free. Neither did they bother to say it was eligible to be held on a S(7) exemption as a historic weapon...)

 

[Armleywhite]

Is that Appleton RC by any chance? 50meter/yard and 100-yard ranges in a quarry, houses almost hanging over the cliff edge and some dodgy meat pies being sold from the refreshment hut?



You like going to Tesco?

What makes you think that people aren't carrying guns? It might be illegal, but the law doesn't stop criminals. Guns are easy to manufacture or import illegally, and there are a lot lying around 'forgotten about' since before 1920 (when firearm certificates became required), or 1968 (when shotguns became licensed), not to mention the number of 'bring backs' from WW2 etc. (My next-door neighbour for many years had her dad's Luger he took off a German officer who no longer needed it in WW1. She handed it in in 1997. The police did not bother to tell her that she could have kept it on a FAC that would have been granted her free. Neither did they bother to say it was eligible to be held on a S(7) exemption as a historic weapon...)

Thing is, I doubt the police would have said it was ok. Just imagine a druggie fuelled burglary and taken the weapon. Yet another illegal firearm on the street. World of difference between handguns (in the UK) and hunting rifles / shotguns.

 

[Wallenstein]

The visceral realitiy of the slaughterhouse ought to be a rite of passage for anyone who eats meat.

This has always puzzled me a bit... how many people here have visited a circuit board factory, or a software development house, before using their PC? Or visited a data warehouse before using t'internet?

Have you visited the "visceral reality" of the coltan mines in Africa before using your mobile phone, or spent time in a chemical plant before using any garments made from synthetic fibres?

Should any BCUK posters in the medical profession visit my offices before they spend the money they earn (our software manages the salaries of NHS staff)?

Seems strange that we apply standards to food and farming that we are more than happy to ignore in other areas of our lives.

 

[Matt.S]

Thing is, I doubt the police would have said it was ok. Just imagine a druggie fuelled burglary and taken the weapon. Yet another illegal firearm on the street. World of difference between handguns (in the UK) and hunting rifles / shotguns.

One of the exemptions to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 (1) allowed for the grant of a firearms certificate (FAC) to the holder of a 'small firearm' that was a genuine trophy of war brought back before 1945. In the granting of such a certificate the usual fee was waived and a condition placed on the certificate that no ammunition for the firearm was to be held. The grant of such a certificate was of course subject to he usual background, medical and household security requirements. Another exemption to the same Act allows the keeping of 'small firearms' on a firearm certificate if they are of genuine historical, aesthetic and/or technical interest. If they are in an 'obsolete' calibre they can be kept at home in your gun safe, else they must be held at an approved facility and cannot be moved without permission of the police. Only the one who holds the firearm certificate may shoot the gun.

 

[Oblio13]

... Guns, especially handguns, have only one use, and that is as weapons.

Not sure how you mean that. There's a world of difference between a weapon used offensively by a criminal, and a weapon used defensively by a citizen who chooses not to be passively helpless.

BTW, I shoot a lot of small game every year with a .22 handgun.

 

[BigShot]

Red - thanks for the tip about that shooting club. I'll have a look into that.

I think I'll refrain from wading in fully to the discussion as it's gone so far, but I'll just add that I agree completely with the "outlaw guns and only outlaws have guns" principle.
I also agree that there's nothing wrong with joe public being armed - and, in fact, that joe public being armed makes people need to be armed far less.
Agreed again about the need for a complete shakeup of the system.


Wallenstein
I think the point about visiting a slaughterhouse is somewhat valid, though I don't agree entirely.
I think the underlying point is that meat eaters should be aware of the reality of what is on their plate. I find it odd how many meat eaters are so uncomfortable with the reality of what they eat that they can't even discuss it - yet they keep eating the stuff.

My view of meat eating, both farmed and wild, is a very pragmatic one.
While I seriously dislike the conditions factory farmed animals live in and dislike the transport and slaughter methods, I appreciate the need for low cost meat.
While I very much like the idea of hunting what you eat because of wild and natural life lived, and the quick death, along with the intimacy with one's food, I appreciate that the wild food we have in the UK probably isn't enough to support the population or the jobs that would be lost in farming if all were to switch. I also appreciate that not everyone wants to be so intimate with their food.

So maybe not visiting a slaughterhouse as such - but the underlying principle of knowing what you eat and being comfortable with it - yea - I agree entirely.