Change to the law on bird pest control

Damascus

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Dec 3, 2005
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If people are unaware, NE are going to update the General Licence next week, hopefully to put an end to this farce created by them and Mr Packham, let’s watch this space!
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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.......
I know plenty of people will disagree with me but I think there is a huge difference between farmers (legally) keeping a pest species in check to protect their production of the UK's food supplies and gamekeepers killing relatively rare birds of prey so rich blokes can stand in line and blast driven birds out of the air for fun. Surely, in the 21st Century, we should be above chasing and killing for 'sporting pleasure' - there's nothing sporting about it. And to be clear, I do hunt, but whatever I shoot goes in the pot.....
Gamekeepers are essentially farmers. The birds they grow are their crop. They grow them for a profit, just like ALL crops. And no, now all crops are food. I’ve been to tobacco farms, cotton farms, etc. that had nothing to do with food (including corn farms that were producing grain for alcohol)

Of course hunting is a sport. I also usually eat many of the animals I hunt but make no mistake that’s just a side benefit.
 
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sunndog

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May 23, 2014
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I am an ex gamekeeper too.
All of our shot gamebirds were eaten. They don't just get shot by hoorah Henry and left in a hedge.

As for this modern opinion that the enjoyment of hunting is somehow some sort of a mental defect or something we as hunters should be ashamed of and keep secret.
Well frankly it is beneath me to entertain such obvious and belligerent nonsense
 

C_Claycomb

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Oct 6, 2003
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I had an interesting conversation with a chap I work with who used to shoot down in Hertfordshire. He hadn't heard about this change since he quit shooting about 5 years ago. His immediate opinion was that this was something to do with shooters from Eastern Europe, who he said had a tendency to trespass and shoot anything that moved. His description of experiences in Hertfordshire with immigrant shooters was a bit of a shock, not something I had heard of before. People without licences, shooting pets, shooting protected species, using shotguns on deer, and at least one case where a poaching Pole pointed a gun at him and his friend when they went to find out who it was shooting on their patch without the farmer's knowledge.

I do wonder what the thinking is about justifying shooting as crop protection. When I was a teen, I used to sit up at a dew pond on a farm to shoot the occasional pigeon that came in to drink. I can see how it could be said that I wasn't doing much to protect crops, but since all the birds did feed on the farmer's crops, everyone was one fewer doing so. It will be a strange and sad situation if they change the law such that the only people able to shoot are those who are kitted out and capable of slaughtering large numbers of birds, rather than those that just pick off a few here and there.
 
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sunndog

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May 23, 2014
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I had an interesting conversation with a chap I work with who used to shoot down in Hertfordshire. He hadn't heard about this change since he quit shooting about 5 years ago. His immediate opinion was that this was something to do with shooters from Eastern Europe, who he said had a tendency to trespass and shoot anything that moved. His description of experiences in Hertfordshire with immigrant shooters was a bit of a shock, not something I had heard of before. People without licences, shooting pets, shooting protected species, using shotguns on deer, and at least one case where a poaching Pole pointed a gun at him and his friend when they went to find out who it was shooting on their patch without the farmer's knowledge.

I do wonder what the thinking is about justifying shooting as crop protection. When I was a teen, I used to sit up at a dew pond on a farm to shoot the occasional pigeon that came in to drink. I can see how it could be said that I wasn't doing much to protect crops, but since all the birds did feed on the farmer's crops, everyone was one fewer doing so. It will be a strange and sad situation if they change the law such that the only people able to shoot are those who are kitted out and capable of slaughtering large numbers of birds, rather than those that just pick off a few here and there.
Mate, the eastern European thing is a scourge where they have decided to invade......think how the problem is with them pickpocketing in cities and apply it to shooting and fishing.
I've even seen trailcam footage of a Romanian gang emptying carp ponds while armed with shotguns

I co own nightvisionforumuk and we had a spate of gamekeepers, shooters, and fishery owners coming on asking for advice about surveillance for these immigrant poachers
 
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With illegal guns then?

Deer is commonly shot with a shotgun in Sweden ( do not know about rest of the world)

Size US 1-4 I think I recall.
Is that not a shotgun with a 'slug' rather than a shot gun with 'shot' cartridges ?
In the England you cannot shoot Deer with 'shot'.

For Deer shooting we have minimum bullet size and minimum energy requirements - for most Deer a minimum of .243" is required (Chinese Water Deer & Muntjac can be shot with a .223)

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/172.pdf

I use the 'good old 303'.
 

C_Claycomb

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I knew about the fishing, in so much as they were cleaning out places with rod and line, catch, kill and cook, but I didn't know about the shooting, and hadn't thought about it in terms of armed organised poaching gangs.
:(
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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Is that not a shotgun with a 'slug' rather than a shot gun with 'shot' cartridges ?
In the England you cannot shoot Deer with 'shot'.

For Deer shooting we have minimum bullet size and minimum energy requirements - for most Deer a minimum of .243" is required (Chinese Water Deer & Muntjac can be shot with a .223)

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/172.pdf

I use the 'good old 303'.
Here we’re allowed shotguns as well. Slugs are sometimes used, sabots are also used (a 40 caliber bullet inside a plastic sleeve loaded into a shotgun casing) and finally buckshot (there’s a reason it’s named “buck” shot)

Shot. US size 1 to 4 I think I recall.

Of course, the distances are much shorter than with a rifle.
I imagine you mean US size 1- 4 buckshot rather than just 1 - 4 shot. Regular #4 shot is about right for ducks, geese and high flying birds. #2 is about right for turkey sized birds. #4 “buck” shot is usually used for riot control, and the most common for deer is #00 buckshot (each pellet is about 33 caliber with 9 pellets per cartridge.
 

Janne

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Feb 10, 2016
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I think that is what you correctly call it yes!


Slugs ( Brenneke slugs) my dad and his friends used for hunting boar
I found a link to what is recommended in Sweden. Despite the language, easy to understand.

http://www.jagarteori.se/jakten/vapen/hagelvapen/hagelstorle


I suspect it is a bit of an urban tale about the Poles. Sure it can/have/will happen, but then all nationalities in UK, including British will be found doing this.
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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Shot. US size 1 to 4 I think I recall.

Of course, the distances are much shorter than with a rifle.
With a sabot or a slug in a properly rifled deer barrel (Yes, special purpose shotguns are manufactured with rifled barrels for deer hunting) range is up to 150 yards (some ammo makers advertise up to 200 yards but in reality that’s advertising hype)

Just a few of the special purpose deer shotguns https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/whitetail-deer/top-10-slug-guns-for-deer-hunting
 

Janne

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Feb 10, 2016
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I see no point in Sabots, except in anti Tank ammo.

Brenneke is used on short range, and is perfect there due to the nice size.
Dad had a Drilling, 2 x 12 bore on top, one rifled for slugs, other one smooth, and underneath a 6.5mm barrel under that.

He was a one gun guy.
Drillings are very common in Europe, specially in Central Europe ( De, A, CR) and basically every gun manufacturer makes them, as standard or on request.
Not so common these days, but Vierlings exist. 2 shotgun, 2 rifle barrels.


If you want to take deer on 150 meters, just use a rifle? More versatile imo.

That is the fun with guns and hunting, something to make everybody happy!
 
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demographic

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Apr 15, 2005
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Have you ever had problems with badgers taking lambs?

Someone i know who hunts and is about farms mentioned before how foxes get a blame for a lot, but he thinks badgers are more likely to take a lamb than a fox.
Nope, can't remember ever seeing a badger within a few miles of our farm. There likely were some closer than the ones Ive seen but there wasnt any setts on our sixty acres (told you it was a small farm).
By far the worst thing for damage to sheep was dogs.
With sheepdog breeds being the worst for the amount they attacked. Likely because the instinct that drives them to be good sheepdogs is the same instinct that they use to hunt and kill them. Humans just used it for our own needs.
Oh and my primary school headmistress had a Neopolitan Mastiff that took a couple out one time.

This was all on a hillfarm that bordered the open fell land and we had hefted sheep on the open fell during the milder part of the year, which is the time when more people walk dogs there.

During thirty odd years of my parents farming sheep there was only one time that there was a suspicion of a lamb being taken by a fox and even that one they thought was most likely already dead before the fox got to it.

They often came to eat the afterbirth though.
 
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C_Claycomb

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Okay...my bad. I shouldn't have mentioned deer and gun in the same post ;) Should have known it would get you transAtlantic guys chatting about ammunition, calibres and whatnot. All good stuff, but if you want to carry on, let me know and we can set up a dedicated thread rather than pull this one any further off course.
 
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Robson Valley

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Nov 24, 2014
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CC: What's on the agenda? Stop shooting or stop pest control? Driven by city slickers?
I like to read the reports from the real farm people. They seem to know the day-to-day truth
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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I see no point in Sabots, except in anti Tank ammo.

Brenneke is used on short range, and is perfect there due to the nice size....



If you want to take deer on 150 meters, just use a rifle? More versatile imo.

That is the fun with guns and hunting, something to make everybody happy!
I’ll stop after this quick answer. Yes a true rifle is better at longer ranges. Unfortunately rifles aren’t legal to hunt with in more heavily populated areas precisely because of their range. That’s where specialty shotguns come in (mimicking rifle performance at ranges greater than 100 yards but still less than 200 yards)

Maybe we should take any further discussion of this (if there is any) either to P.M. or to another thread.