Bushcraft too popular?

[deepcmonkey]

Sadly guys the sort of people who drop litter and leave rubbish as they have done at the
campsite canot be educated it doseant matter what you do at the schools or at
bushmoots . We all know from an early age to drop litter is rong and if people are doing it still its because they dont care not because they are not educated.

Maybe they should have a litter hotline were as if you see some one droping litter or throwing it out a car window you can report them and they can get a heafty fine and 20 hours litter picing.

Tasmania has a dont wast Tasmania campain going on as it has for at least two years
but we still get idiots droping litter.

Exactly these people have no respect for any thing let alone a wood. If you did try to teach them about wild life etc.. they would probably just trash the area the next week to spite you.
Just really a shame there are so many young people like this now a days.

 

[MikeE]

Bushcraft has been commercialized a little too much, and the nearest thing I can compare it to would be (modern) carp fishing. I’m all for bushcraft expanding, but for the right reasons and it needs to be set apart from the likes of Bear what’s-his-face who just promotes shock factor survival which is NOT the same thing.

Kris

Couldn't agree more Kris. Am I the only one that can't find what they want in most tackle shops, there are just too many gadgets and gizmos. Thankfully I've found a great shop near work where at least one of the staff agrees and give cracking advice!

The same goes for bushcraft, the important part being 'craft', it is a craft to be learnt and anyone can, if given the correct advice and teaching. Publicity has certainly made bushcraft popular and not always with the best categories of the population. Having said that, some of my learners (on probation orders!) have shown more interest and understanding than many members of the population at large!

 

[demographic]

With every hobby, theres always going to be a small percentage that knacker things up a bit for others.Hopefully they grow out of it/learn better but another group will do it again.

Of course theres none of us nice people on here that as a kid have ever left a campsite looking worse than it was when they arrived, no way, nope. We all started out perfect and have just got better since.

Whilst on the subject, how many of us own an axe for when camping? Now, how many of us own/have permission on local woodland?
I bet that the latter number is smaller than the former.

Its just a question of degree isn't it?

By the way, just before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't in any way shape or form condone people making a bloody awfull mess in the woods and leaving loads of litter.

The way to lessen it is to set a good example, getting all huffy just puts peoples back up (especially young lads) and they get worse just to be awkward.

 

[Matt Weir]

The Moots are organized by Tony and the team while the Meets are informal gatherings organized by the membership for their own pleasure.

As far as the meets go they are normally on sites that need someone to take responsibility for the behaviour of the people present.

The very last thing we need is an inundation of the special brew brigade at such events because we would very quickly run out of places to meet up.

While we may recruit a few new members and teach a few neds something about the outdoors, I think we would damage our cause far more by association with elements we would have no real control over.

One trashed scout site = no more meet ups.

I'm in total agreement of Wayland on this one. I have a meet organised this weekend - the first one I've organised and to honest it's as nerve jingling as it is exciting as there looks to be quite a turnout, the majority I have never met but everyone has found the meet through the site indicating an established interest in the subject and therefore I have faith that folk coming are already aware of codes of conduct and LNT philosophy.

I would dread to think about the results of a meet that for example, I'd advertised in the Manchester Evening News as I foresee a weekend that consisted of me picking up after everyone, telling folks to 'please put that in the bin' (and possibly being told to put it in the 'flipping' bin myself) and still spending 2 days after the event going over the site litter picking after the event. That's before we go into the area's of security and people and their property, marshalling wannabe Rambos, finding area's cleared of tree's, huge bonfires, aaaarrrgh - STOP (think happy thoughts Matt, think happy thoughts )

Waylands post says it all for me.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Theres a lot of good stuff going on here.
Plenty of good ideas on how to demonstrate that there are better ways of behaving in the wilds. However, until the message is taken up by the uninformed, no progress will be made. I think there is greatest effect to be made from "point of use" lessons, but we can't do that if we're leaving no trace, hence it turns out to be confrontational - and is unlikely to be in our favour, as we tend to go out singly or small groups - possibly confronting a drunken gang. They might well be thinking that because there is no sign of recent activity, "no-one comes here, so we're OK in having a fire and leaving our trash around". Then BCUK comes into the area, posts its shocking evidence on their website and tidies up. The next week, Wayne & Tracy once again go for their burn-up in the woods and someone has tidied up - its not their responsibility so they do it again.
I know its in direct opposition to the LNT ideals, but how about a leaflet, prominently displayed which encourages these folk to clear up and disguise their fire-scar? It would have to be carefully worded to seperate them and us - so as not to leave a calling card from the wrong group. Perhaps even a contact number for joining the local group or attending some skill sessions - perhaps some carefully placed examples of some crafted items; anything to get them to think just a little bit deeper.

I don't know what the final answer might be, but "outside the box" ideas might be better than our rants between ourselves.

Ogri the trog

 

[Doc]

Is bushcraft getting more popular?

'Bushcraft' gets around a third of a million hits on google.
There must be around 40 bushcraft course providers in the UK if not more.
7000 members on BCUK and, no doubt, many more unregistered lurkers.
Many TV programs which are either about Bushcraft or have a bushcraft slant - some of the 'reality tv' and food programmes have this.
Three UK bushcraft magazines (I think - kind of lost count), one of which is for sale in High Street outdoor shops. The one I have seen has plenty of advertising.
Bushcraft suppliers at outdoor and country shows.

Yes, I think bushcraft is getting more and more popular.

And this is, I think, a problem. The best place for sustainable bushcraft is wild country with a low population density. But Britain is a densely populated, overdeveloped small country with no wilderness and relatively little wild country.

Even well practiced bushcraft has some impact on the land. We talk about leave no trace, but the traces are there - although hopefully insignificant. Last time I had a fire when camping, I believe I left no visible trace. But if every night for a year, someone had a fire in that spot, the loss of dead wood in the surrounding environment probably would have had an impact.

Cheap kit is partly responsible. There is a new phenomenon in our hills and woods - the practice of abandoning the pitched tent after a night away, to save the dreadful effort of packing it up and taking it home. This is clearly a new thing, and only explainable by the availability of sub £10 supermarket tents. Of course, it is very polluting and may trigger unnecessary search and rescue operations.

Often the 'early adopters' of a new craze are enthusiastic and knowledgeable because of the difficult and steep learning curve. As it becomes more popular it is easier to get into, and standards begin to drop, much to the annoyance of the old timers. You saw this with CB radio and in the early days of the internet for a while.

So - I don't know. I think the leave no trace ethic should be a higher priority on tv. I expect the main course providers try to get the message over.

The other thing that would be helpful is to spread wild camping around a bit more. There are an awful lot of wild campers - and bushcrafters- who only camp within half a mile (often much less) of the car. Walking or paddling a few miles before setting up camp would help.

 

[Nightwalker]

I really do think a brief message of LNT ethic across all bushcraft-related-media would be a really good idea. I think publishers on this subject on every medium should take some responsibility. Here on this website, from a sticky thread, to email newsletter's, TV programmes & free Internet Podcasts, it takes a mere message either audio or text displayed at the bottom of the screen for just a few seconds. Repeat this on every episode and publication and I really do believe it will make an impact on first-timers & casual watchers.

 

[andy_e]

In one of RM's programmes he discussed this, and showed what techniques he used to minimise his impact, things like mixing up his fire ashes with water in his billy and scattering it in the bushes over a wide area, then raking the earth and leaves over his fire site.

I am a relative new-comer to the Bushcraft side of things and would appreciate seeing more ideas/tutorials on how to minimise impact, most of it I am sure is common sense and while I try my best but I'm sure I could do better. The simple truth is that most of what is out there is Survival orientated, in which nature is something to be overcome at all costs. It's more glamorous, danger (real or imagined) is sexy and that sells!

 

[xylaria]

I don't know what the final answer might be, but "outside the box" ideas might be better than our rants between ourselves.

Ogri the trog

Like building some modern art with their rubbish, like making an effigy out of the dumped tent put a beer can in the hand and then taking a permanent marker and writing 'Only mingers drop litter' on it. Freegan anarchist art.

I have done this in past when it has been to much to take home. There is no point getting stressed by things you can't change, but have you can still make your self heard without saying a word.

 

[Peter_t]

there are too many people who think 'wow thats cool' then they go out and give it a try but only half hearted and leave litter and damaging the environment. i saw an example of this just a few weeks ago where someone had made a shelter (a very poor one at that) and decided to camp over night but they left loads of litter, didnt clear up the fire or the shelter and the ammount of trees and vegitation they had hacked doun to make it was unnessassary when the could have used dead wood and leaf litter.
it just makes me sick to think they they are giveing us all a bad name.

 

[Cairodel]

Theres a lot of good stuff going on here.
Plenty of good ideas on how to demonstrate that there are better ways of behaving in the wilds. However, until the message is taken up by the uninformed, no progress will be made. I think there is greatest effect to be made from "point of use" lessons, but we can't do that if we're leaving no trace, hence it turns out to be confrontational - and is unlikely to be in our favour, as we tend to go out singly or small groups - possibly confronting a drunken gang. They might well be thinking that because there is no sign of recent activity, "no-one comes here, so we're OK in having a fire and leaving our trash around". Then BCUK comes into the area, posts its shocking evidence on their website and tidies up. The next week, Wayne & Tracy once again go for their burn-up in the woods and someone has tidied up - its not their responsibility so they do it again.
I know its in direct opposition to the LNT ideals, but how about a leaflet, prominently displayed which encourages these folk to clear up and disguise their fire-scar? It would have to be carefully worded to seperate them and us - so as not to leave a calling card from the wrong group. Perhaps even a contact number for joining the local group or attending some skill sessions - perhaps some carefully placed examples of some crafted items; anything to get them to think just a little bit deeper.

I don't know what the final answer might be, but "outside the box" ideas might be better than our rants between ourselves.

Ogri the trog

[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by Cairodel
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed at the lack of reaction to my previous post...
My point being that members here have the know-how to help teach at said "bushmoots"
and perhaps send invitations to schools, youth centres etc...etc...etc...
Instead of discussing the ills, and seeing no way ahead, members here have the
wherewithall to spread the word/educate, unless, of course they are only interested in
their own "forays" into the wild.
Perhaps BCUK clubs/clubhouses could be set up in a number of places all around
the country...???
Or am I being too much of a "perfectionist", and members want to keep things to themselves???
[/QUOTE]

Seem to be following the same line of thought, Ogri....

 

[commandocal]

have i missed something or has anyone Not blamed Bear Grylls yet? hes the usual bushcrafter punching bag haha

but with these channels like national geo showing rays bushcraft/wild food /survival series from 9 to 5 each day non stop its bound to draw more people into it

 

[sabre21]

Hi guys im new to bcuk site so would like to say high,and am looking forward to learning and joining in the forums.I have been into bushcraft/ survival for quite a few years.I have been having a look at your site for a few weeks and like what i see, so be gentle with me at first.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Seem to be following the same line of thought, Ogri....

Thank you Del,
It strikes me as a little ironic that the LNT ethics lead people into thinking that they are the first to ever set foot into an area - and so the thought process justifies itself - if no-one ever comes here, then no-one is likley to come along after me - I can do what I damned well please!
Sadly, to the greater population, "having a good time" involves, drink/music and worse, and so if they go to the woods to have a good time, they can only see that they have to take their own supplies - and after consumption, they are in no fit state to contemplate removing any sign of their revelry. It is not until someone else points out the beauty of the bare and naked natural world that it becomes as intoxicating.
Xylara's art effigies is something to consider, as are any other means of converting the godless, but there must be a modicum of realism about this.
By all means inform the landowner that his land is being used by unwelcome visitors - but we still must clear up after them or we loose our permission to do exactly what they thought they could do. Perhaps if we were to set targets for converting one or two people each week/month/year we could start to redress the balance - prizes for converting them, welcome packs for those who join our forum with a tale of "I used to be a woodland wannabe!"
Ranting amongst ourselves makes us no better than............

AArrggghhh see, you got me going again!

Ogri the trog

 

[Cairodel]

Ranting amongst ourselves makes us no better than............

AArrggghhh see, you got me going again!

Perzackelly Ogri, we shouldn't be ranting, but trying to convert the plonkers that are
spoiling things for everybody else...
We have much the same problem when SWMBO and I venture into the desert, and bring
back more rubbish (placky bags, beer cans, bottles and various tuna tins etc..etc..etc..)
than we took with us, so the problem is not just in the UK.....

 

[daved]

The best place for sustainable bushcraft is wild country with a low population density. But Britain is a densely populated, overdeveloped small country with no wilderness and relatively little wild country.

Even well practiced bushcraft has some impact on the land. We talk about leave no trace, but the traces are there - although hopefully insignificant.

Well said Doc. I think it is too easy to forget about this just because we are (hopefully) better behaved than the litterbugs.

Why not set a really good example to others? Think twice before lighting a campfire. Yes, they are fun, yes, they are "bushcrafty," but do you really need one? Why not just use a stove? By all means practice your firelighting techniques but do you really need a fire just to have a cup of tea in the woods? Why not take a thermos?

The same goes for building shelters. Can't you use a tent or a tarp instead? Or even (getting ready to duck) go back to a campsite at the end of a nice day in the woods?

I don't want to spoil anyones fun and don't expect many people to agree with me but lower impact is not the same as no impact. I am not in any way defending the sorts of idiots who leave beer cans, broken bottles and fire-scars behind but I thought the thread was becoming just a bit too self-righteous.

 

[Emma]

I remember being taught the Country Code at a rural primary school. I also remember that most of the other kids there never quite got the hang of "leave the gate as you find it". And I remember that at my secondary school, in a small town with a large catchment area of small villages in countryside, most thought the Country Code was the same as the Green Cross Code - it being Green and all.

It's not just the kids though. There are a lot of middle-aged (and older) dogwalkers around who consider vandalising fences to be justifiable, and allowing their dogs to worry livestock is "just natural".

At the shop where i work i would say only about 20% of the customers are pleasant and civil and articulate. Most just grunt or throw items at you without a word and that spans all age groups.

I've never worked out why silence is so often equated with rudeness.

 

[John Fenna]

It is the manner in which you are silent that counts!
A smile a nod and the right change can be polite silence - a glower and a grunt is not very polite...

 

[stuart f]

So does anyone else think we need a sticky on the site for all to read about the ethics/ethos?, as we seem to be going around in circles at the moment. I agree that you can't leave absolutely no trace of your being in an area that you've practiced skills in,and that not all rubbish in the countryside is the fault of practicing Bushcrafters. At the meets i've been to there is always bin liners for all to use,some for re-cycling others for general waste which are taken away for proper disposal by the attendants at the end of the meet,plus if people have used the site before us we usually have a clean up anyway,so any newcomer to a meet can see with their own eyes the LNT ethics being played out before them,and hopefully they will learn by our efforts.

I do think we can do something towards helping by teaching people,even on this site,maybe when posting up threads on this site you could have something along these lines, this is an old post of mine but you can see what i,m getting at with the last photo
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10798

It would,nt take much thought but even a little bit here and there might get the message through, i hope

 

[deepcmonkey]

To be honest I dont think the popularity of bushcraft has increased the amount of t##ts dropping litter in the countryside, there has always been people doing this and there always will be, no matter of education will slove this.

I am sure all the programmes by Ray etc..has given a far greater positive input than negative and has gotten more people in to this hobby who are decent and clear up rarther than the other way round. I for one had no idea their was an interest in some thing called Bushcraft until Ray came along. I thought it was something only us military folk were into.

I think there are far worse things wrecking the country side, one of my pet hates is all these festavels and the folk who go to them claiming they are "really green man", they completely trash the country side, have you see the state of glastonbury and others after the end of the show? Thats what annoys me.