Bushcraft shelters in winter - no tent/sleeping bag

[n00b]

Hi - has anyone slept without a sleeping bag and tent in winter (UK), just using what's naturally available for warmth and shelter? In addition to a decent set of clothes - or not! Curious to know what gear is actually 100% necessary in other people's experience.
Cheers

 

[Chris]

I did when I was in the Army. It sucked.

Depends on the temperature, but I really wouldn’t advise it. At minimum you need the ability to make and maintain a fire indefinitely. Other than that, moisture is your biggest enemy - in low or sub zero temperatures, the damp will kill you if you cannot dry yourself out.

With enough clothes and a shelter which lets no water in, on a (somehow) dry floor, you’d probably be ok in an emergency. But good luck with that in a UK winter.

 

[n00b]

you need the ability to make and maintain a fire indefinitely

Or hot rocks? I've not tried them myself but was just reading about them. Even a hot water bottle. I'd rather carry a few of them than a sleeping bag and tent. But ideally not.


Keeping dry is the main thing, yeah. I watch videos of people making these leaf/moss-covered lean-tos or A-frames and think that is never keeping you dry in a sustained downpour. So what's even the point of that kind of shelter? Insulation I suppose. There are natural rooves to be found, overhanging rocks come to mind although they're uncommon. Bridges... Not natural but common.
So assuming keeping dry is taken care of, it's just a question of heat. I feel it's doable with no gear. Just yet to try it.

 

[Broch]

I have the luxury of having woodland next to me. So, a few years ago, I decided to try out minimum kit on a sub-zero night. Started with just my 'winter day clothes' and a wool blanket on a waterproof mat. Fire going about 2metres away. About an hour in (probably now about midnight) added the insulating mat. 2 o'clock, got into the sleeping bag; 3 o'clock added the blanket on top of the sleeping bag. 5 o'clock woke freezing 'cos the fire had burnt down to embers.

A tarp set up as a leant-to with a reflective fire would have helped but not if I let it go out. A lot of leaf and twig insulation underneath would have been OK perhaps instead of the insulating mat. Blankets make poor substitutes for sleeping bags in sub-zero temps but are useful additions.

Having said all that, the British cold, windy, wet, winter weather is harder to deal with than crisp dry sub-zero. Damp can be a killer at anything below 10C. IMO

 

[Nice65]

Your avatar suggests you may have found a workaround

 

[Erbswurst]

If you find a big heap of dry leaves under an overhanging rock and crouch into it like a hedgehog it's enough to have a good fire going in the evening to warm it and in the morning to dry out the worn clothing if you have to deal with temperatures around the freezing point.

Otherwise you have to sleep next to some kind of long log fire under a lean to shelter.
You need a huge amount of spare firewood and need to have trained to feed your fire at first after 180 minutes and afterwards every 90 minutes, what's the natural sleep circle of humans plus / minus a few minutes.
That means you awake anyway but instead of changing the sleeping side in your bed you feed the fire and change the body side as well.

You have to train that with normal clothing in forgiving temperatures until it becomes a natural habitus to you. And afterwards you can do that in colder and colder circumstances.

It's less exhausting than it looks in the first view, because you awake every 90 minutes anyway, even at home in your bed.
Let's say you first sleep at home 180 minutes, that's why you need in a lean to shelter very good embers and a lot of thick logs on top to come over that first section.
After these first three hours continuous sleep you only have to feed your fire at 4 h30 and 6 h - when people usually go to the toilet at night- and 7h30, what's the assumed 8 hours people usually stay in their beds.

But if you do it more than a single night you surely need another 90 minutes in the end of the night, because although it becomes a natural thing for you, you simply need more time to get the needed amount of sleep.

It can be done without any doubt but you have to train it very well in rather warm weather before you take the risk of hypothermia.
Of course you have to sleep on a thick natural insulation and if you can have a heap of dry leaves over you is no fault.
I recommend to set up the fire only one step or arm length from you and to put a few big stones between you and the fire.

One can also put hot stones underneath oneself, but that I never tried out myself.


Don't underestimate the amount of needed firewood! You need really very very much and also pretty thick branches! Rather thin conifere wood to reactivate the fire and pretty thick beach and oak to create the embers that you need.

 

[n00b]

About an hour in (probably now about midnight) added the insulating mat. 2 o'clock, got into the sleeping bag; 3 o'clock added the blanket on top of the sleeping bag. 5 o'clock woke freezing 'cos the fire had burnt down to embers.

So that was with the fire burning and you stoking it each time you woke up to add another layer to yourself?

 

[n00b]

You need a huge amount of spare firewood and need to have trained to feed your fire at first after 180 minutes and afterwards every 90 minutes, what's the natural sleep circle of humans plus / minus a few minutes.

Very interesting idea I'd not come across. Thanks.

Other alternatives I suppose would be a self feeding fire -

- or perhaps a log stood upright with the fire inside, so it smoulders all night. Although maybe that doesnt give off enough heat without adding gear to do something like this:

 

[n00b]

Don't underestimate the amount of needed firewood!

Good point too

 

[n00b]

Your avatar suggests you may have found a workaround

Haha - in my invincible twenties that may have worked

 

[Man of Tanith]

The most effective shelter I've used in winter was a three man shelter lean to.
One side was open for getting in and out the other three sides were the insulated bed area, raised off the ground and padded with debris.
A fire ran centrally, as it was a group shelter at least one of us would wake when the fire died down and restoke it. Although one individual made the fire up so much I thought I had rolled onto the fire when I woke up.

Blankets offer at best a psychological reassurance, in the situation I described I actually used it as a heat shield

 

[Erbswurst]

Such self feeding fires don't work properly. You can use such a wall to dry your (already dry) wood a bit and if done properly it keeps a bit better the warmed air together. Otherwise the fire reflector wall as well as the self feeding fire are pure nonsense.
It came with some survival books and got spread like peanut butter through the internet afterwards but has nothing to do with the classical art of camping.

I want my ignited fire wood as stable as possible if I sleep a step from it. If you ignite a wooden wall at a deep point the whole thing will immediately catch fire, of course.

What seems to work is a larger upside down fire though. But I never tried that.

You ignite a fire on top of a pile of logs. The falling embers ignite the logs underneath. So you have a small fire in the beginning of the night and afterwards when it became much colder a second larger one. Might be a good idea for the first 3 hours.

But secure is to awake after 90 minutes when your fire burned down to embers.
You don't only risk hypothermia, you also risk to get roasted like a chicken, don't forget that.
The stuff under you will become dry during the night and might catch fire!

 

[Erbswurst]

What @Man of Tanith describes here comes close to a Sami Kota. That's a round house made for hard winter conditions.

Most German boy scout groups use a modernized tent version of that and it works very well.

Lost in the woods without a way out I would build such a thing as soon as possible. It's just too much work for a single night if you are alone and try to get out of the woods.

 

[Damascus]

Back in the mid 70’s serving in the army, whilst on a route exercise, on Otterburn training area, minus 5 during the day! One of our four man team started to behave really weird, onset hyperthermia. Decision,
come off the hill side, after about an hour and a half, things were getting worse, we found a sheep pen, one army sleeping bag between us, for emergencies, the army had our care at heart! Plus a huge heavy gauge plastic bag and army ponchos each. We stuck him in the bag and took turns getting in with him, all inside this big plastic bag. The other two wrapped in ponchos, that’s were we spent the night, it was cold! We survived, used all our hexi’s making brews and soups, got back to the check point 8 hours late. Got a bollocking for that and a pat on the back for doing the right thing. Mind you at 17, you can take on the world, ha ha!
would I like to repeat it, a big fat, NO!

 

[n00b]

If you ignite a wooden wall at a deep point the whole thing will immediately catch fire, of course.

That's what I assumed but then thought well if this is so common on youtube, including coalcracker bushcraft, who's usually quite good, there must be something to it. I guess not. Loads of useless crap on there

 

[TLM]

A log fire, look for "rakovalkea" at YT. Together with a leanto it works up to a point, tried that.

The alternative used in the Taiga throughout is half a meter of spruce boughs underneath and about the same amount on top of you. And you make that under a large tree to get cover for rain and radiative heat loss. Haven't tried that but it comes up often in literature.

 

[Tank]

I have done a night in late august with nothing but the fire to keep warm in a debris shelter which was fine as not too cold anyway.

In January I enjoyed two nights in a debris shelter with the use of a fire and a wool blanket but the blanket was mainly used when the fire died down and shortly after getting up to stoke the fire.



So my thoughts are no a sleeping bag is no necessary, however there is a ton of work to keep warm, either by building a good shelter or having a lot of good firewood.

One shelter I still want to try is this one show by Neil from Greencraft

 

[Tengu]

So, the moral of this is not to get caught outside without a sleeping bag and tent in GB winters?

 

[n00b]

Great video Tank. I'll have a look at that channel. Likeable guy

 

[Man of Tanith]

Great video Tank. I'll have a look at that channel. Likeable guy

Neil is a good egg his videos are always interesting