Bushcraft Qualifications.

[jamesdevine]

Your turning me misty eyed as well.

I have found memories of my father doing the same and some of Grandfather but even to this day I am still learning from him.

james

 

[Carcajou Garou]

I am more in agreement with Gary as to National certification, so that a set level of skills are passed on but it has to be flexible enough so that to each would allow his/her expertise to rise, as a business . Most aboriginals learn from elders that they follow out in their daily outings and basicly learn by osmosis, the elders who know bushcraft here could not really pass a National cetification course not enough formal school education but I would follow them.
just a thought

 

[RovingArcher]

Applying regulations to and asking that teachers be licensed for something as simple and pure as Bushcraft seems alien to me. Modern man is going to regulate himself right off the planet. :?:

To me, the obvious drawbacks of asking for them to regulate the craft are that when government gets involved, the people lose. Course prices will increase and Insurance companies will have a say as to how many, who, how much and what, can be taught. The government will want to know why axes and knives must be used and will start regulating or banning tools that are needed for the craft. The government will start passing regulations on what can and can't be done while in the woods and you'll be looking at the end of bushcraft as you currently know it.

If the reason you want regulations is so that you don't waste your money on a bogus teacher, then ask that teacher for a list of clients that you can contact. That is a common practice here in the States when considering hunting outfitters. If they can't furnish a list of satisfied clients, then don't use them. Better yet, talk to the people on this and other bushcrafting sites and get their opinions. If you can't trust these folks, you gotta find another source of fun, because these folks got it going. :super:

Like Carcajou stated in his post, the best way to learn about living and working in harmony with nature (bushcraft) is through osmosis. Going out with an experienced individual and watching them and doing what they do. Or, you can stumble around like me and learn it all the hard way. :roll:

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Saygo!! RA, nice to hear your words again. They make sense to me. Not as many boars to hunt here but a lot of bears almost the same!!! Go north young man, go north. BC is closer and more kinds of bears, black, brown and grizz!!

I was trying to put myself in the UK's state of mind with most people who are eager to learn bushcraft but don't have a yardstick to measure experience in nature, and wanting to access proper guidance but could come upon either "PROS" or "mis-guided enthusiasts" the choice, unless they are part of a board as this, would be difficult.

The thing about national certification that worrie's me is your point...
RA-
"To me, the obvious drawbacks of asking for them to regulate the craft are that when government gets involved, the people lose. Course prices will increase and Insurance companies will have a say as to how many, who, how much and what, can be taught. The government will want to know why axes and knives must be used and will start regulating or banning tools that are needed for the craft. The government will start passing regulations on what can and can't be done while in the woods and you'll be looking at the end of bushcraft as you currently know it."

Very well put!!!, I should have said better in my text, it is a hard question to answer without losing either competency or being overegulated to the enth degree. Even in Canada we have this inconsistency in our experts, some of who mix "bushcraft and survival" I know better minds than mine will solve this.
Maybe a star rating programe set up by a combined group of enthusiasts and experts in the business could give a helping hand.

It seems Creator has given us a blessing that I had not realized, our access to nature in a great variety of locales. I never really thought of this freedom of access that much until lately, it never occurred to me that others were not so fortunate.
just a thought

 

[jakunen]

Maybe a star rating programe set up by a combined group of enthusiasts and experts in the business could give a helping hand.

Good idea btu would be very open to misuse. "He was rubbish as he wouldn't let me bring my crossbow, so I'll get all my mates to give him a bad mark". And surely, the 'experts' would have to be 'authenticated' in the say way...

Sorry to play devils advoca

 

[RovingArcher]

O'siyo Carcajou; I hope this finds you and your family well and with good spirit.

Even though my intentions and words may not be applicable in all circumstances and places, I felt obligated to share what has happened in America time and time again. Mind you, I'm not anti government at all. Humans have a need for rules and must choose leaders that will work in their best interests. However, it's been my experience to view over regulating first hand. You ask for something beautiful to be regulated so that it doesn't get ruined for what ever reason and the next thing you know, for the good of the people and the country, what started off as good intention, ends up terminal to that which you wanted made safe.

I'm still a big fan of learning one on one with an experienced outdoorsperson. The old way of learning through osmosis is still the best way in my opinion, but unfortunately, if there are more wannabe students and few instructors, then courses are the only alternative. Another unfortunate is that, not all people learn at the same pace and the time restraints of the course will leave many with little more information available to them than they arrived with. To me, if someone pays their hard earned money for a course, they deserve to walk away with an education. That is a primary reason that I don't feel that money should ever get involved with anything like bushcraft. It's always been something that has been handed down out of love for the craft and Nature.

Yes, I know. I am a very outspoken individual sometimes and for that I apologize to those that are put off by my words. But then, they are only my words and opinions and perhaps one or two of them will make sense.

 

[Adi007]

I'm still a big fan of learning one on one with an experienced outdoorsperson. The old way of learning through osmosis is still the best way in my opinion, but unfortunately, if there are more wannabe students and few instructors, then courses are the only alternative. Another unfortunate is that, not all people learn at the same pace and the time restraints of the course will leave many with little more information available to them than they arrived with. To me, if someone pays their hard earned money for a course, they deserve to walk away with an education. That is a primary reason that I don't feel that money should ever get involved with anything like bushcraft. It's always been something that has been handed down out of love for the craft and Nature.

I agree with you RovingArcher. I worry an awful lot about the outdoors being seen as a cash cow. Many of the skills I have I have picked up, one-to-one from people who were naturally comfortable in the outdoors (my Grandfather was the best bushcrafter I even knew). He was a natural at many skills and had the patience to teach. He also had no ego associated with what he knew and had learnt himself - he saw the skills as normal and natural and passing them on as a duty.

Courses are a modern substitute but watching, listening, learning, practicing, perfecting and mastering skills takes years of active dirttime and quiet time with nature. The one thing I really like about this site is watching people (myself included) going through this process with skills on a regular basis.

:chill:

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Saygo!!! RA, lead on :super: I never get tired of your post, they lead in a good way.
just a thought

 

[Gary]

Wise words Roving Archer and I truely wish life was such that we could all live up to them.

 

[RovingArcher]

I agree Gary. The most any man can even hope to accomplish in his short life is to walk the best path available to him at any given time. Unfortunately, anymore it seems that most choose the path of least resistance and self and not the path that benefits the whole.

I can also understand your situation and how you are involved in the craft. I think it's a grand thing that people such as yourself are available to share their wisdom and offer up good gear choices to those in need. It is a must that a student of the craft have the basics of gear down before attending any sort of course. I mean, we're all pretty much gear addicts in one way or another.

I just hate to see it all get regulated to death, which unless some sort of self regulating is done amoung those that are actually doing the work, that is a very real possibility. If self regulation can be done without making bushcraft into a cash cow competition and it can be done fairly with bushcraft as the beneficiary and not the individual, then it should all work out great.

It would take a lot of work putting together a Bushcraft council and the needed regulations to keep it all pretty much on an even keel, but I think it'd be well worth it to bushcraft and everyone involved in it. It might even be a consideration to involve the scouts and other outdoors organizations for their input while putting it all together.

A thread about planting native trees and other plant life got me to thinking that if the bushcrafters spearheaded an effort to reforest the UK, the gov. might see something special taking place and leave it be. But, you never know.

 

[Les Marshall]

I know this thread is a little old now, but on reading it, I have to agree with Rob. I am no expert at bushcraft(who is?), but I have a fair knowledge. However, I would make a lousy instructor, but do instruct a few friends if they ask.

 

[Squidders]

Yes, this post is ancient... I know, I know. But i'm torn between wanting some regulation and wanting to keep everything chaotic.

I spend a lot of time outdoors climbing in the peak district, the wye valley and even on southern sandstone. Frequently I forget that the right to climb in these places has been secured by lawyers and negotiators on behalf of the BMC (British Mountaineering Council). The rocks I climb on are always owned by someone and if the BMC didn't have any money from charging for certification, training or membership I would be in the same mess I'm in with bushcraft... nowhere to go without begging directly to sceptical land owners!

On the flip side, I'm not qualified in any aspect of bushcraft or climbing, most of the climbing courses and mountain leader courses are just ropework and self rescue nonsense... they don't teach you how to climb well, how to move on the rock or anything truely useful.

Maybe having a British Bushcraft Council with a membership, preferential insurance, training and certification would create enough revenue to buy woodland areas or secure access with land owners. One more thing the BMC do is to keep track of local wildlife and tell you where not to go during nesting seasons etc... that's information I would have no access to if I wanted to go for a bushcraft afternoon in a given area, I could disturb delicate nesting birds without knowing they were there.

After spouting on for ages... I think I have talked myself into "yes" it's a good idea. I want to pay someone to declare me safe and trustworthy and to secure access for me to woodland.

 

[leon-1]

I will probably get jumped on for this, but it is a slightly different tack to the way a lot of people are looking at things.

I agree with squidders with what he was saying about the BMC, they do a lot of work for those that attend thier accredited courses and are members.

One thing that I can see that would be of use is that if there was some form of legislation then you could get an even balance across the board.

If you go to a school to do an introduction to bushcraft then you would have some form of set curriculum (there would be subject matter that would have to be covered on specific courses) and this goes for basic, advanced and instructors courses.

It also means that if you have done a course with one school at one level then the next level could be done at another and both you and the instructors know the level that you will be at having done x, y or z course.

However problems can arise if you end up with two bodies of legislation as with diving and the whole BSAC and PADI situation, so the control of setting up some form of authorised body would have to be very tightly controlled.

Both the BMC and BSAC give thier students log books so that they can both chart thier progress and levels of experience, time spent on meetups (like the one that BCUK have just had) could then be entered into the log book along with the specific lectures / talks that were attended.

The BMC and BSAC don't teach a lot on thier later courses, what they do is test levels of competence and ability. If wild foods for instance is required to get people at a recognised advanced level then a lot of it would have been taught on a basic level or a seperate course and you could then be assessed on it.

This is not a path that all people would like to take, but if you wanted to instruct, it gives the client / student the knowledge that thier instructor has both the experience and knowledge required. It also means that a students abilities are known to the instructor and school no matter where they have done previous courses or training.

I know it is not a popular view, but this would stop "cowboy" units setting up all over the place and the student then knows exactly what they are getting for thier money.

I don't like the idea of a body in control of things because bushcraft is a chance to be free and enjoy that freedom, but at least with this you could have somewhere to train and know that wherever you have done previous courses at a level it would be pretty much the same as anyone else who has done the equivalent course at any other school.

 

[Gary]

Interesting idea Leon, the only thing I can find wrong with it is that in establishing a standard type syllabus for different levels you would take away that which makes each company/school different, they'd end up as state schools are now :shock: .

Bushcraft should be about living within the natural environment, eating nuts in the Autumn and spring greens at the birth of a new season - like nature a Bushcraft syllabus should be fluid and every changing.

In some cases it might cause greater problems than that, lets take Bearclaw and Islay birding as I know Jeremy wont mind. Set syllabus states all students on a basic course must learn to I.D five fruit bearing trees or bushes - in Ashdown or Merthyr Mawr not a problem but on Islay? Another example lets say all students on a basic level must learn one fishing technique using improvised hook and line and have fished using this equipment for a period of no less than 30 minutes, on Islay easy but in Ashdown?

Also, I have taught on courses where, right or wrong, veggies have refused point blank to even sit the hunting lectures let alone take part in the butchering of game - would that mean they are failed as this is a crucial skill? And lacking said skill would they then be barred from teaching courses?

:?: Sorry to be awkward but those are just a few of the problems I can envisage. And they are the minor niggles not the major headaches!

 

[leon-1]

Yeah I can see your point there Gary, that is the whole thing about setting up any governing body, the fine details are difficult to sort out.

But look at it as this that the schools as much as areas of learning also become test centers. The only thing that really has a set syllabus is the introductory course. The basic, intermediate, advanced and instructor courses are then a progression.

When you finish each accreditation you are given goals to achieve before attending the next course / test. As with diving where you will do a number of different types of dive before doing the next level (novice to sport diver), but you do them in your own time, so the only pressure to achieve the next level comes from the student him/her self.

As you said not all areas cater for all skills when training. Doing things in a series of modules that can then be tested when you feel you are ready to be tested would allow you to train in different enviroments. All in all this would probably work out more expensive than just going from one course to the next, but your level of both skill and experience would be of a far higher degree as effectively if you wish to progress then you have to spend the time actually practiceing the skills learnt.

The other thing was that I mentioned that this was really for people who want to go on to instruct themselves. Not make a career out of it because as you know, if you are teaching this it is more for the satisfaction that you get from (A) doing it, and (B) imparting the knowledge to someone else. You don't get rich unless you have the media machine behind you.

 

[Gary]

Again good points mate and I agree with you, as in any subject a well rounded education means attending different courses (in bushcrafts case) run by several different schools but more than, and in my opinion more important than, this is you learning for yourself and thus gaining greater and more varied experience while the building upon the knowledge courses will have given you.

A school can give you the bricks but only you can build the house!

Becoming an instructor is a whole other matter and could get quite sticky on here so I will choose my words with care - usually instructors come up 'in house' and viewing the comments above might or might not be classed as well rounded (not literally although I try! ) however there are one or two good courses out there such as the plumpton one in the UK which focusses on the business aspects as well as the craft and this might be a good sounding ground where 'in house' trained instructors can go from different school to learn skills from different instructors and perspectives, similar to what we in the army would have called an 'all arms course' but then this too would need to be 'neutral' ground I suppose and who would fund it?.

But now I'm waffling :wave:

 

[Squidders]

I had something a lot more general in mind.

For example, that someone can have a camp fire without setting the near by woods alight. It shouldn't matter what method was used to set the fire, friction, sparks, matches or liquid oxygen.

Everyone is right, bush craft, like so many things in life, is a journey... How you make the journey is very personal, you should be allowed to stray from the main paths and explore other aspects of bush craft, not just survival or shelter building but the spirituality that often comes from being such a small person in a large, wild world.

Obviously, as Gary pointed out, what works in one region may not work in another, fire making woods may not be available that you are used to. This would make grading or forming a complex syllabus ridiculous. You can't take an expert in arctic survival and expect them to be effective in a desert or jungle.

I think more of an umbrella organisation would be more useful, not so much a governing body but a representative for the bush craft community at large. Someone to fight our corner for access, to give advice and representation on legislation for using our skills and our often pointy equipment alongside people walking their dogs.

I would gladly pay £50 a year for membership to an organisation that could help my journey. As a side note, the BMC make a lot of money from their publishing division, they produce a number of guide books for areas, reports on equipment durability and safety and because of their size and the size of the community they represent they can lobby government effectively.

I think any exams and/or qualifications should be firmly grounded in keeping people and property safe, not regulating how shelters are built or fires lit.

Joe

 

[Gary]

Squidders while I can see where your coming from but one major draw back to that would be US! :yikes: - What do I mean?

Land is precious (as in delicate and in decline) in this country, woodland more so and while the wear and tear on a rock face is still a problem it is not as bad or as rapid as the damage to woodland caused by mountain bikers and this would be nothing if compared to the rapid 'using up' of resources, such as fire wood, in an area designated as ok for bushcraft. The intense usage of such a site would be devastating to the whole local eco-system.

We have all seen it ourselves in areas where courses are run or where scouts regularly visit. Easy access would only damage that which we love.

Nigels (squirellboys) example is the best one - or as so many wiser than I have said before me 'take only photographs leave only foot prints.'

As for paying an organisation - that, to my mind, seems to be defeating the object - to me the attraction of 'the craft' is the precieved freedom that it holds - organisations only bring red tape and sooner or later youd be a glorified camping club!

 

[Squidders]

compared to the rapid 'using up' of resources, such as fire wood, in an area designated as ok for bushcraft. The intense usage of such a site would be devastating to the whole local eco-system.

I may be missing the point but aren't we all wandering around, using resources, taking photos and cleaning up after ourselves at the moment anyway?

I would think that for individual to approach a land owner, they would be met with scepticism and doubt. If an organisation were to approach the land owner and present a code of cunduct for its members (a non restrictive code, that we pretty much all use anyway) finding somewhere would be a lot easier.

Also, the organisation would be able to collect information, real information about the use of land and overuse of land so that the above fear would not become a reality.

As for paying an organisation - that, to my mind, seems to be defeating the object - to me the attraction of 'the craft' is the precieved freedom that it holds - organisations only bring red tape and sooner or later youd be a glorified camping club!

Like we're not facing red tape already

 

[Gary]

:rolmao: very true Squidders, none of us are truely free but hey thats a different story.........

As for land usage, think of it this way, a cow in a one acre field will browse without ever eating all the grass for it will grow behind her. But a herd of cows in the same field will quickly munch the lot.

I see what your saying but I doubt this 'organisation' could get unlimited access every where, land owners dont like people with axes and matches running around their woods. So it is better if for each of us to be the cow rather than the herd!

Unfortunately in Britian there just isnt the land - America, Canada, Sweden, Finland etc maybe you could do it but sad I think not here!