Bushcraft & paganism revisited (if allowed)

[Yohny]

Been away a few days (my wife just had a hysterectomy) so haven't visited this forum for a while, but I was intrigued by the now closed thread. Hopefully this new thread will be allowed! I used to be "pagan". Not in the neo-earth mother/native American/Celtic revival sense, but I grew up in an area where all the old Celtic festivals were still celebrated, where a walk in the woods always seemed to be something more. I lived in the the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina & worked with, socialised with people of Cherokee blood (sometimes full, sometimes part) who would seek out the "Great Mystery" by fasting 3 days. I became a Christian 1996 & for a long time was as far removed from nature as I was formerly part of it. I guess it reminded me too much of my "pagan past". The past 5 years or so I'm more balanced. I see nature now as part of creation rather than something to be created.
Reading through the past threads comparing paganism to bushcraft, I agree. In some respects the 2 intertwine, not that you have to be one to be the other! On the other hand, each of the points raised by the originator (sorry, can't remember your name) also fit in with Judaism & thus Christianity. Adam & Eve (whether you choose to believe or not) were told to take care of the earth. Some argue that Christianity is Heaven focused so doesn't care about our planet. This isn't true, as we're told in the Bible that the earth is to be our permanent home. Heaven is only a temporary domain. Calendar cycles as mentioned all fit in with the ancient Jewish festivals. All very fascinating stuff. Christianity isn't all tamborines, sandals & hymn books! The spiritual side is very real & I truly feel manifests in nature. I've re-learned to embrace the wilderness as something beautiful that provides as it was intended to. As for the demonic, that sadly is all too real. It's very easy for folk to get involved with something innocently that can lead to trouble down the road...I know from personal experience! Just thought I'd contribute & hope no one feels I'm preaching or pushing.

 

[rich59]

Thanks Yohny,

Have been a Christian for many years. See God in creation and nature very much.

 

[VIRULENT SALAMANDER]

Hi I was just reading this Bushcraft Vrs Paganism? and was surprized when it was closed, this seems to me to be simular to yours. I myself was just thinking it is nice to read a wider range of chatter between the members. In short. I think it should be allowed but moved to the "other chatter" forum. This is ment to be a free world with freedom of speech and all that!. After all we have got to have something to go with our

and not every one is super skilled on one subject.

 

[Kane]

As long as threads don't fall into abuse/flames then why not - hope your wife is doing well Yohny

Kane

 

[Yohny]

Hi Kane - yep, wife is healing up nicely...makes you realise how much wives do when I suddenly have to do it all now!

 

[Tony]

Hi I was just reading this Bushcraft Vrs Paganism? and was surprized when it was closed, this seems to me to be simular to yours. I myself was just thinking it is nice to read a wider range of chatter between the members. In short. I think it should be allowed but moved to the "other chatter" forum. This is ment to be a free world with freedom of speech and all that!. After all we have got to have some think to go with our

and not every one is super skilled on one subject.

I was going to reply to this yesterday,. But I’m in a better mood today

The previous thread was closed because it had deteriorated; some people were making remarks that could have been the catalyst for some serious disagreement. The policy that I instigated on BCUK was that there was to be no political or religious discussion as these nearly always deteriorate and end up detracting from the site.

I agree that it is nice to read peoples views, but you’re wrong to apply the ‘This is ment to be a free world with freedom of speech and all that!’ This is a privately owned forum that encourages people to take part as long as they abide by the rules and the moderation.

The work that goes into moderating the forum is quite considerable, experience dictates that such subjects and threads deteriorate and there’s a lot of mopping up to be done, no one ends up being happy, not those offended, those that liked the thread or the mods that have to deal with the PM’s, email and the time spent contemplating what needs to be done.

The subject is an interesting one and one that we would have let stay, if it had not deteriorated, which it did (surprise surprise). Very few threads are pulled without there being a sign that they’re going down hill. There are plenty of forums that allow such conversation where people talk down to one another and where they are allowed to deteriorate into tit for tat comments, this isn’t one of them.

This thread is interesting (although to be honest I was surprised the subject was so blatantly revived when I closed the other one) if it deteriorates at all I’ll close it just the same. It’s down to you guys to keep it on track, if you can

 

[JimH]

Hmm,

"Pagan" - from the Latin "Paganus" - a country dweller.

So, literally, there is something of a connection.

I can't see the modern definition of "pagan" (often taken to be those of other faiths by those of "The book" - ie Christians, Jews, Moslems) as particularly relevant, though I can see that those with an interest in polytheistic belief systems may well percieve a spirtitual dimension to their Bushcraft.

As an agnostic/atheist I can empirically say that I don't notice any impediment to my appreciation of nature as a result of seeing it as fundamentally mechanistic(if not fully understood)

Jim. Mostly urbanus

 

[tanto]

Very interesting subject and i hope it doesnt get locked like the last one. Please lets try to keep this discussion on track and not get off topic or into slandering. Remember that to use this forum is not a right but a privilege as Tony pointed out.

First of all i want to say that i see the connection between bushcraft and paganism. But its in my opinion mostly on a practical level and in some aspects the respect for nature. Its absolutly not consistent and something that you can find in every bushcrafter and/or pagan but on the whole these two connections are noticeable. We live in and use nature much like the pre-christian/pagans. We respect nature by not taking more then we need and show our gratitude by not leaving much of a sign that we where there and so on. Im sure most of us can relate to the "magic" one can feel in nature but as its such a diffuse subject that can be interpreted so differently depending on religion, experience and culture its hard to get anything constructive out of it.

Im not going into my personal beliefs or values as i dont want to be part of this thread going bad. I respect each persons choice and leave it that way.

 

[andyn]

Always does my head in watching people arguing their beliefs, as a moderator on some other forums I unfortunatley can see exactly why Tony closed the last thread. As per the "use your head, teach" adverts that are on at the moment..."Wouldn't it be nice to work with people who HAVENT made up their mind yet"

I'll be honest in that I am totally atheist, as per Jim, and am also quite happy and actually interested to hear other peoples views and opinions.

Personally I cannot see any relation between any religion and an appreciation of nature/Bushcraft....I think it has more to do with Respect, as Tanto said, also some, if not all, religions have some aspect of that in it.

Lets not be closed minded and hear what other people have to say about it, we might learn something

 

[VIRULENT SALAMANDER]

.... .. I should have worded this differently & I am very sorry if it has upset anyone , but the pretext is being miss understood.

Hi I was just reading this Bushcraft Vrs Paganism? and was surprized when it was closed, this seems to me to be simular to yours. I myself was just thinking it is nice to read a wider range of chatter between the members. In short. I think it should be allowed but moved to the "other chatter" forum. This is ment to be a free world with freedom of speech and all that!. After all we have got to have something to go with our

and not every one is super skilled on one subject.

 

[Faeden]

Hi all

I am a little worried about talking on here about this stuff LOL So ill be careful how I tread.

Personally I cannot see any relation between any religion and an appreciation of nature/Bushcraft....I think it has more to do with Respect, as Tanto said, also some, if not all, religions have some aspect of that in it.

Well I believe the words highlighted in red are what are both shared, so you could argue that there is a relation there in its self. If you look at my original post I have made other examples. I am completely aware that the two things are completely different, Bushcraft has nothing to do with religion, or the supernatural, but from a Pagans point of view there is a connection with God/ess when working with nature as pagans believe the energy forces of nature are the god/ess working through our natural world, Pagans learn spiritual things through studying nature, and its seasons, and also from the animals within it, which is something Bushcrafters often do when learning new crafts. This happens not just in Bushcraft, but in everyday life, for instance sonar, and radars where developed with the help of studying the bat.

Natural history shows that Paganism which is a belief in the supernatural is responsible for starting the key principles to Bushcraft, (can you imagine how different Bushcraft would be if we did not have the known knowledge of the ancients? )

Although Bushcrafters have in many cases taken the spirituality away from it, which is fine in my view, and I wish more people would take an interest in Bushcraft, as more people need to be educated about the importance of our natural environment.

On the flaming side of things, the reason that I was not going to start the original thread or was reluctant too, was I was aware some people become uncomfortable with some questions that they might have normally blocked out, so tend to lash out when reminded of it, which kind of happened on my previous thread, however I have learnt to over look that kind of reaction, as you become immune to it after a while, but I do find it a little disappointing that someone could become insulted, just because a valid question was asked, I did not insinuate that the two where the same, only that I saw a similarity, and asked if others had also seen it, which it turns out many have. I was pleasantly surprised by peoples responses.

I apologizes if my question has caused some confrontation here. One of the mods PMed me about the closing of my past Paganism and Bushcraft thread, which I agreed it should have been closed, as it caused some offence or anger. I personally am very comfortable with my own beliefs, so any questions put to me are welcomed, and I will do my best to answer them respectfully, rather than get offended.

Take care
Faeden

 

[zambezi]

I see nature now as part of creation rather than something to be created.

And here lies the the essense of Christian faith; we bow to the Creator, not the creation. And it is His will that we excercise responsible husbandry of our world. It is in that pursuit that we share our appreciation of the planet with those of many faiths and traditions.

And it is this common ethos that binds bushcrafters in their love of nature.

 

[Doc]

I hesitate to reply to the this thread because of the risk of generating conflict. There is a doctors net forum that used to have a religion sub forum. I say 'used to' as it was soon pulled by their moderators after yet another flame war.

I find there is a spiritual dimension to being outdoors. Man made concepts (like time) are forgotten and natural rhythms (sunset, moonstate, the tide) are of far greater importance. I am aware of other feelings - an awe and wonder about creation, and a sensation of 'connectedness' - but I'm not going to be more specific.

I'm not alone in being vague. Even today, scholars argue over whether John Muir was a humanist, a pantheist or liberal Christian because of the vagueness of his writings. There will no doubt be similar arguments about Sigurd Olson (see http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/JMC/Olson/theology.htm. He's a man I agree with a lot.

 

[JoshG]

Linking any religion and nature is a personal thing. You do it yourself, it's already within you, you don't need to believe in God(s) to appreciate the world around you, Regardless of religious texts and teachings.