Maybe there's a gap in the market for 'high turnover' low price bushcraft courses?
Quite possibly
It may seem like a lot of money for a two day course, but as has already been pointed out there are all sorts of things to be costed in.
The rental of your site - say £5 per night per person = £10
"OK if thats what it costs,but I have never met a landowner prepared to rent for two days per week. So I would assume the land is rented weekly. If so then your costings are very high. IMO.However I will not doubt but will speak to a couple of local landowners in my area."
Then theres food, which depending on market prices can fluctuate, but lets say £15
Insurance, theres lots of deals out there, but the IOL offer one which is £1000 +. So if you run 24 courses thru the year , thats about £42 per course (divide by the number of students on the course - six I think you said = £7).
"Ah but a lot of these are asking people to supply their own food invalidating this argument.
Also part of a lot of courses involves foraging to cook a free meal at the end of the forage."
Then theres the cost of staffing, what do you earn per hour? Ok not a fair question - but lets say just above the minimum wage £6. Now my hours while teaching normally mean I'm up before the students, sorting the fire out, getting breakfast etc. And I would bank the fire up last thing at night, which is something like 07.00 - 23.00 = 16 hours @ 6.00 = 96.00 x 2 (two day course) = £192.00 again divided by six £32 per head.
"As I said before the ones I have researched have been one person ie the proprietor."
Now then theres a set-up day and a clean down day (cleaning all the kit, oiling the knives hanging gear up to dry) now they are short days (8hrs) x 6.00 per hour x 16 = 96.00 divided by six again = £16.00.
"If you are using tarps and hammocks or tarps and camp beds, what needs to be cleaned that would takes a day to clean and another to take to the site
Surely knife sharpening would be part of most courses."
Now you need at least two members of staff on a bushcraft course (even if its not advertised - there will/should be) so multiply your staffing cost by two.
So a running total on that per head is £128
"See above 1 person"
Then theres the initial outlay on kit, viechles, cooking gear and the bank loan that was got out to fund it.
"Pots and or billys surely in bushcraft you will be cooking on a fire?
I doubt that anyone in this business has a dedicated vehicle for the courses but I may be wrong"
Then you need to advertise - magazines, running a website, etc,etc.
"Advertising is/or should be the biggest outlay for any business and I do know that this can be expensive"
Discounted courses in winter? For a lot a of people bushcraft tends to be a better weather activity and trying to fill winter courses often proves that I'm affraid.
Also for many who are new to bushcraft - paying any money at all for being cold, wet & uncomfortable would be a very strange idea. Yes you have done it - but in the forces you are paid to it.
"Worth a try if winter if that lean. I would have thought."
So mate I hope this has gone some way toward answering your question.
Atb
Neil[/QUOTE]
"Useful answers but I will do some more research, Thanks for an informative reply Neil."
MY public liability insurance, and that's just for me demonstrating spinning, weaving and natural dyeing costs £300 a year for 5million (the minimum employers expect nowadays).
"With the utmost respect Toddy ,it would seem to me that you are paying way too much for your public liability."
If I added in cover for other people, cover in the event that a student is injured, cover for the land, employers liability, the bill grows exponentially.
"Your public liability should cover you against any claim by your students.it would also cover the land as the only requirement a landowner will generally require is 5.000,000 PL.
Employers liability would not be required for a one person operation as discussed above."
Land use sounds cheap, find ideal land though and that's a whole other ballgame. Ask anyone on the forum who has been trying to find/ rent/ buy suitable land just for themselves.
"Agreed not easy to find but once found not hugely expensive to rent."
Equipment does wear out, it doesn't come cheap and it's necessary to carry sufficient to supply everyone on the course. It's not a one off, it's a constant expense. A friend who teaches basketmaking has just spent over £500 on equipment for students, and expects to have to replace that every two years..........how expensive does twelve axes, saws, knives, etc., etc., come in at ?
"A lot of money but how often do axes,saws and knives wear out, when used for a short time weekly?
And as to outlay,its not like you would be giving each trainee a gransfors axe."
Wages, well, that includes national insurance, income tax, holiday pay....... and it's all very well to say self employed, it still needs to be earned.
"Not against anyone earning a living, I have my own business's so I do know how it works.
And other than the service I have been self employed all my life."
The prices you quote are misleading, I know of several schools who charge nothing like that for a weekend........Backwoodsurvival for instance is only £130 for their basic course, and get a really good reputation too.
(No offence intended by omission, just the school I looked up first since it's on my doorstep)
"I apologise for not being as thorough as maybe I should but I have not seen these people."
I know how much time I take prepping to teach, basically you double the days worked and you add on a clear away one at the end too. I can't see the bushcraft schools being any different.
So a Friday to Sunday course needs another three days to deal with it properly. That's a weeks work that the three day course needs to raise sufficient funds to pay for..
"Sorry but I really do not believe that.
I have in the past been teaching people in an outdoor environment in a different field (no pun intended) seven days a week. By your theory I would have never slept. Clearing and cleaning and maintaining eqipment was a part of the course so I was constantly on top of it.
If IMO you are teaching for two days then spending another three cleaning and prepping you are doing something wrong."
No one knows it all ( well, maybe Mors
) and on going training, experience is a necessity to keep skill and knowledge developing, this training doesn't come cheaply either.
"So who teachs the teachers?"
Finally, bushcraft as it is taught is an industry, a business, the fees reflect what the industry will bear.
If there is such a profit to be made, then why are there less than a handful of fulltime bushcraft schools in the country ? and this is despite there being a lot of highly skilled and reputable people trying to make a living out of it.
I don't think it's as easy as you suppose.
"I am sure there are some wonderful people making a good living from bushcraft.
and I agree that most items or services are priced to the max the market will bear, however times are changing and while I dont want to get political (remember I have been told off for that before) we are about to enter a recession, the like of which has not been seen by any living person."
You asked the question, you can't only expect answers you like.
You could prove us wrong though
cheers,
Toddy
"I do not expect only answers that I like and until that slightly patronising line ,I respect your comments.
As I have said I asked the question to debate a subject that interested me.
I am obviously not the only one who thinks the prices are a touch on the high side.
After all this is a totally unregulated business,where anyone with the wherewithall and the land can start a bushcraft centre. So how do you know what you are paying for?
Thanks for your replies"
GS
