Breathable AND waterproof? Wiggy thinks not!

[Andy BB]

I must admit to being a big fan of Wiggy's kit - in my experience it does what it says on the tin. And he's the ONLY sleeping bag manufacturer to both recommend you wash his kit as often as you like in your washing machine, and also offer (and apparently honour) a lifelong warranty on his bags for any faults - including loss of loft, no matter how old and well-used.

However, some of his views are somewhat trenchant, particularly his view that coatings like Goretex etc are a "con" - his words, not mine! (and considering how often he's said it on his website over the years without being sued, I'm guessing he has a point..)

Found this vid - see what you think! (for even more entertainment, read his newsletters and commentaries on his website...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5azfUc4jSU

 

[MikeLA]

Whats the website please couldnt find it. Interesting

 

[Andy BB]

wiggys.com

 

[mbiraman]

I think Wiggy is right about The waterproof/ breathable statement. As far as i'm concerned it has been just spin to get people to buy product and it worked. Back in the late seventies/ early eighties lots of us bush workers in BC canada bought goretex gear hoping and believing the claims. We quickly realized it was bullsh*t. It may work a bit for standing at the bus stop or walking the dog but anyone who starts to exert themselves in goretex will end up wet. If it stretches at all it will start to leak in that place which is why they quickly started telling folks to buy a size larger. We bought gortex bivy's as well and in the morning we were soaked between the sleeping bag and gortex material. We all went back to what worked for us, which was layers of wool in a drizzle and if it started to pour we put on a light weight nylon raincoat unzipped. At lunch we changes into a dry set of wool and at night dried everything. The next day repeat. You've got to ask yourself , if its waterproof and breathes then why the pit zips. Its physics. You can only do so much with the ratio of waterproof and breathability. Anyway my 2 cents

 

[garethw]

I've always believed from my own experience with different coats, both cheap and expensive, that if it breathes it ain't waterproof and if it's waterproof it won't breathe.

I now try to avoid waterproof shells unless its really pouring..I just end up as wet inside as out when moving.... My windproof smock keeps me reasonably warm and dry when layered up, yet avoids getting too sweaty and cold.

I did get a British army MTP rain jacket, it is ok and was cheap, but when worn over say a Pile pertex top you do get wet insoide too. I also have a cheap Decahtlon nylon jacket a couple of sizes too big that I keep in the pack, so I can throw it over whatever jacket I'm wearing.

Probably a nylon poncho is th ebest bet to stay dry and not sweat.

cheers
Gareth

 

[Shewie]

Interesting thoughts, I use modern shells for hiking and I'm certainly drier with them than without in inclement weather.

But everybody is different, one of my hiking mates gets a lather on just putting his boots on at the car never mind walking up any hills, he struggles with Paclite, eVent and NeoShell whereas I find these three fabrics to work really well for me.

 

[John Fenna]

Unfortunately it is getting hard to find boots WITHOUT a membrane!
It takes really good (expensive) manufacturing to make a non-membrane boot that is reasonably waterproof (the more stitches the more prone to leaking).
I spend an awful lot of time outdoors and review kit for part of my living.
At present I do not have a single Gore-Tex jacket in my wardrobe - but I do have lots of wool mid layer items and lots of Ventile, plus some waxed cotton.
I do review some "breathable" waterproofs now and again but overall I am less impressed with them than a layering system of Wool, Ventile (or canvas or waxed cotton) and if the heavens open an ex MOD poncho.

 

[demographic]

Better test is to start the stoves all at the same time and with the same amount of water in the jars instead of waffling on for a few mins before getting the last one started and having random quantities of water in them.
The one on the left is boiling from about 4:25 on the one on the right doesn't start boiling for about another minute and the centre one he knocks off before it ever gets boiling.
Then he says that the two on the right don't let as much vapour through...Err I wonder why...

Of course one that's boiling first will let more vapour through.

Any point he may have had is skuppered by his poorly executed unscientific test.

All he had to do was fill them all to the same amount, knock them all on at the same time (or near enough) and do the talk while they heat up.

I actually half agree with some of the stuff he says and wouldn't have thinsulate boots.

 

[Tiley]

Most folk have talked about 'layering up' with wool and a windproof on top. That's fine for winter or colder conditions but less comfortable for warmer ones. I've found that the waterproof/breathable stuffs work to a degree; they never give you what you expect, however. I'm sure that Wiggy does have a point about the fabrics but then I remember back to my first Cagjac - a mid thigh length P.U. coated nylon waterproof: I could stand quite still in that and, after twenty minutes or so, would be actively wet inside it. I have not had quite the same experience with Goretex and eVent though I do agree that they are definitely not all they're cracked up to be. As has been said, if they 'breathe', why pit zips? Why storm flaps that increase ventilation? It is most definitely an imperfect technology...

 

[John Fenna]

I find wool T shirts very comfortable in summer - and the Wool, Ventile, Poncho system works well year round.
However, if it is really warm then getting a little wet is no issue as you dry fast too
A Ventile jacket is no more uncomfortable than a Gore cag in hot weather...

 

[Joonsy]

An interesting topic. If waterproof/breathable jackets and boots made from goretex are no good (a hoax according to wiggy) then surely that thinking must also apply to goretex bivvy bags as well. Many people on this forum condemn goretex jackets, many also recommend the use of bivy bags, especially the army issue mvp/goretex one which is often recommended as being ''bombproof''. I wonder how many people who condemn goretex jackets use goretex bivy bags (I would hazard a guess quite a few), and of those who do it would be interesting to know why they consider goretex unsuitable for jackets but not for bivy bags. Thanks.

 

[Badger74]

Probably because when sleeping in a bivi bag, a person is not really exerting themselves.

 

[demographic]

I have a couple of Gore Tex jackets, both very good in their own way,

One has the pit zips which I open up when I'm doing something more active like hillwalking and the other is Railway orange Hi Viz and I wear it for work. The orange one is great, its thicker than most (the material that is) and pretty tough. Worked in all day rain wearing it and not got wet. Try walking up the fells in it though and it is possible to overwhelm it. Surprise surprise.

Neither of them has let water through but it is possible to overheat in them (Ya think so?) and sweat.
Its also possible to overheat in the non waterproof garments I wear underneath them without the Gore Tex bit.

In short, don't expect them to cope with every level of activity perfectly.

I still don't like thinsulate boots though. They get too hot.

 

[Joonsy]

Probably because when sleeping in a bivi bag, a person is not really exerting themselves.

That’s true and a big factor of course. I’ve used various waterproof/breathable bivy bags and personally I’ve often suffered with damp/condensation, and even ice inside them, and they have been used correctly too. I have slept in both non-breathable survival bags and various waterproof / breathable bivy bags, the breathable bag has always been ''drier'' so some moisture is obviously escaping, however the breathable bag has also often been damp, just not as damp as a non- breathable, therefore I can only deduce that the breathability of gortetex works to a degree but is often overstated and exaggerated. ATB

 

[cbr6fs]

I think most of these shell type materials do what they say they are going to do, problem is mainly peoples expectations.


I've just come back from tonight's run, it's around 3c here today and i ran in a cotton teeshirt with arm warmers, my teeshirt was wet from sweat after the run.

So it's hardly surprising that a shell layer will cause you to sweat more if your really exerting yourself.


In my experience people hiking tend to put wayyyyy to many layers on, they then complain that these technical type clothing are not working.

I always aim my layering to be just slightly cold if possible.
If i find i start to sweat then i'll stop and remove a layer, again something most fold can't be bothered to do.
If i'm out for a long hike then if needed i'll even slow my pace to try and not sweat so much, i'm not in any race so finishing the hike 30 mins later but less sweaty is a compromise i'm happy to make.

Another thing i find specifically on this forum is that usually the vast array of activities we all do here is a bonus, but for clothing that's not really the case.
Having someone advise on what clothing a hiker should choose when they don't hike much is only going to lead to problems.

Much better to aim advice at specific tasks that we are doing.

As an example i have a onesie type waterproof suit for the motorbike, it's served my well for many years, it's warm, wears well and keeps me dry, i've even used it many times for fishing.
To recommend that for a hiker or trail runner though would be madness.

So the wool and ventile no doubt work great around the camp fire or chopping wood, but they're a poor choice for anyone hiking up hills, once ventile has wetted out you may as well put a bin bag for the amount of moisture it lets out.
It also gets very heavy, again no problem say round a campfire, but not really ideal when walking up and down hills.

 

[demographic]

I think most of these shell type materials do what they say they are going to do, problem is mainly peoples expectations.


I've just come back from tonight's run, it's around 3c here today and i ran in a cotton teeshirt with arm warmers, my teeshirt was wet from sweat after the run.

So it's hardly surprising that a shell layer will cause you to sweat more if your really exerting yourself.


In my experience people hiking tend to put wayyyyy to many layers on, they then complain that these technical type clothing are not working.

I always aim my layering to be just slightly cold if possible.
If i find i start to sweat then i'll stop and remove a layer, again something most fold can't be bothered to do.
If i'm out for a long hike then if needed i'll even slow my pace to try and not sweat so much, i'm not in any race so finishing the hike 30 mins later but less sweaty is a compromise i'm happy to make.

Another thing i find specifically on this forum is that usually the vast array of activities we all do here is a bonus, but for clothing that's not really the case.
Having someone advise on what clothing a hiker should choose when they don't hike much is only going to lead to problems.

Much better to aim advice at specific tasks that we are doing.

As an example i have a onesie type waterproof suit for the motorbike, it's served my well for many years, it's warm, wears well and keeps me dry, i've even used it many times for fishing.
To recommend that for a hiker or trail runner though would be madness.

So the wool and ventile no doubt work great around the camp fire or chopping wood, but they're a poor choice for anyone hiking up hills, once ventile has wetted out you may as well put a bin bag for the amount of moisture it lets out.
It also gets very heavy, again no problem say round a campfire, but not really ideal when walking up and down hills.

All of that^ especially this bit...

In my experience people hiking tend to put wayyyyy to many layers on, they then complain that these technical type clothing are not working.

 

[tiger stacker]

Watching the adventure show on monday and tuesday Cameron Mcneice sported a lightweight marmott? that look sufficent for scotlands finest showers.

 

[petrochemicals]

The only one I like is pertex, you can see the steam rise through it! If you wax the surface of that I think that may work.

 

[John Fenna]

All of that^ especially this bit...

As you say - it depends on your activities to a large degree.
However, I have found well vented Ventile over wool excellent for hill walking, especially in full winter conditions (Cairngorm plateau). The Pile and Pertex combo worked very well too (Full Buffalo system) which is interesting as Pertex was designed as an "Artificial Ventile" and pile was designed as an "Artificial Wool" ...
Both systems seem to have longer active lives than membrane waterproofs (in my personal experience) are easier to maintain through washing and mending and more pleasing to wear (that is, of course, a very personal observation). In chosing my kit I also try and look at the "eco credentials" of the fabrics... a minefield!...but I doubt that the wool shirts I favour (hand made from charity shop blankets or for a lighter shirt Welsh Flannel woven from British wool in Wales) or home made jackets from British Millerain fabrics (Waxed Cotton or Ventile substitute) have many rivals on this score. The cotton used in Ventile does have some Eco Issues ... but not as many as Synthetics I would offer .. and some Merino fabrics have a huge Carbon Footprint (though you can get UK Merino) again - synthetics seem to be worse in terms of Eco Issues.
I still think that synthetics do not work as well (for me) as a good set of Naturals ... for the things I get up to in the Outdoors.

 

[sunndog]

I tend to find if you are wearing full waterproofs of any material for a long time, its a choice between staying dry and moving
If you must move about then all you can do is mitigate how wet you get

Goretex is breathable, but its not magic...I run very hot when walking and sleeping. there's no way any MVP garment can keep up, even with venting