Blacksmithing rebar question

[mr dazzler]

Is there any one who could advise if rebar is of any use for forging tools (eg hook and ring type turning chisles, small carving blades etc)? I obtained a piece FOC about maybe 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch diameter. I understand its tougher than mild, but will it forge and harden sucessfully? Also what about old dril bits (large sds ones or masonary ones)?
I was thinking about setting up a simple african style forge to make some stuff. When I had my woodburner fitted, they removed an unused and intact fireclay fireplace back and top beam. I was thinking of using the fireclay back as a sort of forge, with a mattress inflator to get air and home made charcoal fuel, cut the beam into smaller parts to make wall's to retain heat etc. I've come to the conclusion that really the best way to make tools is to do it yourself.
Has any one any sudgestion's plaese?
cheers Jonathan

 

[spamel]

I would go across to British Blades and ask this question in the Cutlers Forge section. You will find out loads over there, and spend a fortune too!

 

[ForgeCorvus]

Rebar is a medium carbon steel alloyed with some more exotic stuff, its good for making tools that need some shock-resistance, but don't need to be really hard. Stuff like cold chisels, punches, axes, froes etc. I wouldn't use it for making knives or razors or metal working tools, it should be fine for woodturning tools and the like

I have made arrowheads from 1/4 inch rebar for a mate who was into living history, it made really good hunting broadheads and bodkins and got good penetration on the test pieces

RE: Masonary bits, they have a cutting edge insert (Manganese, I think) thats braised into a slot in the end of the bit (not welded as the material won't weld), this will be lost when you heat the metal (its the greyish shield shaped piece), what the screw part is made from I havn't a clue.

If you're looking for a place to get cheap metal, get down to a scrapyard and pick up some leaf-spring (for flat things like blades) or half-shaft (for hammers and such), or more rebar

One thing about charcoal, it burns hot and clean but it has little 'staying power', you will use loads more then you think. I once forged a sax blade for someone using charcoal, I got through four bushels, if I'd done the same thing using coke I'd of used about two shovelfulls

If you need any other advice on a subject close to my heart, give us a shout

 

[mr dazzler]

Thanks for the responces gents
I can at least give it a try, or try using a straihgtened coil spring as eric sudgsted?

 

[mr dazzler]

Thanks for your advice forgecorus
When I mentioned the masonary bit's, I wasnt really considering the brazed on tip end, I was thinking of forging the end that goes in the drill which is still cylinderical, not fluted like the cutting end. I thought the steel must be strong (at least stronger than mild rod) as it stays straight even when your drilling big and deep holes? but not sure if it can be forged and rehardened and tempered etc? What is half shaft? Brian Russell made me some tools from leaf spring (drawknife and 2 scorp's) in 1991 ish, and I still use them, in fact I used the draw knife earlier today to whittle tennons.
Does it matter what type of coke (or coal) you use if you didnt use charcoal? I might be able to recover some coal from a ditch where its been lying for quite some years, shed loads of it. I only want to work small scale (hook tools for pole lathe turning)

 

[demographic]

RE: Masonary bits, they have a cutting edge insert (Manganese, I think) thats braised into a slot in the end of the bit (not welded as the material won't weld), this will be lost when you heat the metal (its the greyish shield shaped piece), what the screw part is made from I havn't a clue.

SDS masonry bits have a tungsten tip.

 

[ForgeCorvus]

SDS masonry bits have a tungsten tip.

Thanks, I'm a smith not a metalergist (I can't spell either), I just knew it was something B****y hard

Half-shaft is part of a cars suspension, I don't know what bit though, it should be round section (anywhere from an inch up to three or more in diamiter) and will be made of something like 0.5 to 0.8 carbon (somebody told me 20 years ago and my memory might be wrong). When tapped with a hammer it will ring like a bell, and a mangle-grinder (or bench grinder )will throw fairly bright yellow/white sparks from it.

For coke, the ideal stuff is 'Breeze', this is really small stuff, about the size of large peas/small beans, if you can't get that (most places don't stock it) buy the smallest you can get, or smash it up

Coke is made from coal, you can run a forge on coal, but is does require a little more practise to get a clean fire.
You'll need to use the coal wet, and bank it up near the fire, this 'cokes' it, you'll see a plume of thick yellow-grey smoke come off it,( this is the impurities like sulphur and such being burnt out) don't breathe that if you can help it, its not nice stuff.

Your first fire will probably be dirty, the second fire will be lit using the coked coal or coke thats been heated though from the first fire and will therefore be cleaner (clean and dirty are nothing to do with dust, soot and ash, they are to do with the impurities in the fuel that get into the metal and can make your work harder to do, charcoal has no impurities and makes a great fire)

I'll see if I've got any good books to recommend on the subject.

BTW when you set up your forge, bring the air inlet in about half way up, and fill the bed up to that point with sand, dig a hollow about the size of two fists in the sand just at the end of the tube and light your fire in that, when its going you should have a ball of burning coke (or whatever) with the pipe blowing into the middle, the hottest part will be just in front and slightly above the pipe. If you get it right you can burn the steel, try not to

 

[Mike Ameling]

Old rebar used to be pretty good for making chisels and punches. It was tough, shock resistant, and the edges held up well in use. It was something of a staple project for school kids, and people playing around in the farm shop.

But new rebar is a little different. It is mostly scrap iron/steel melted down, mixed together, and then formed into those classic bars. And it is mixed to a minimum standard for carbon and alloy content. But it is still made from from whatever scrap is on hand at the moment. So the actual metal alloy content can vary widely. You can still make good tools from it, but your final heat-treating will have to be adjusted to match how the metal itself is acting/working. And that can vary throughout the whole bar - inch by inch.

A friend was using a hacksaw to cut through a 3/4 inch rebar for some concrete work a few years ago. He got about hald way through when his saw blade went dull instantly. And a new blade would not cut anything. So he snapped/broke through the rest of the bar. The end of the rebar showed why it stopped cutting. There was a whole, complete ball bearing in the rod! It had been mixed into the whole pot of metal, but had not been heated up enough to really mix/blend together with the rest of the scrap metal before they turned it into rebar.

So rebar, and most other general "welding shop" steel is made to a minimum level or standard when it is originally made. But it can and will have much higher levels or carbon and other metal alloys in it - depending upon the original "scrap" that is melted to make it.

Another good, cheap source of quality steel for making your own cutting tools is lawn mower blades. They are generally 1085 or 5160 carbon/alloy steel. They work and heat-treat consistantly, and you can generally get used ones free for the asking.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[ForgeCorvus]

Mower blades....why didn't I think of that

If you what something really good, get yourself some old files (car boots and such).
you could always use some for making steel strokers to use with your flint

 

[spamel]

Half shafts are what transmit the drive to the wheels in vehicles. Cars have a lot of bits that could probably be used to create knives and tools, the springs on the suspension be they either coiled springs or leaf springs, no doubt the gears and cogs in gearboxes and oil pumps could also be used in some way. Perhaps cam shafts and pushrods could be put to use too. It would be worth trying bits out from your local scrappies and seeing what does what, although some of these items will take a bit of heating and hitting!

 

[ForgeCorvus]

Just remember that there are only two smithing operations, upsetting (making it thicker and shorter) and drawing down (making it longer and thiner), everything else is just bending

 

[robin wood]

When I visited Ion Constantin a 70 year old gypsy bowl turner in Romania in 1998 he was using hooks forged from rebar, but then he was sharpening them with a file so they were clearly not getting very hard. Hooks don't want to be too hard as they are subject to a lot of percussion they need to be tough. I was told on everage rebar was lower carbon than the spring steel or half shafts that most folk choose. I used en47 and eh45 spring steels for my hooks for years but have recently gone to 01. All these forge incredibly easily with wide working temperatures. I also forge D2 and D4 which makes better hooks but has a very narrow working temperature so try the spring steel first. If you can't get hold of spring or half shaft easily by all means try the rebar you have...the worst that will happen is that you have to sharpen more regularly. see www.bodgers.org forum for more discussion of hooks

 

[mr dazzler]

Thank you for the helpful and informative replies :You_Rock_


Robin, is en47, eh45 and o1 like a standard type that people will recognise if you ask? Can you buy it in rod sizes that are convenient?

 

[Owen Bush]

Graham oxley tool steels in sheffield are a good supplier,there are others .
en42 is a great simple carbon steel to forge .
New steel should be 3 to 5 quid a kilo fpr simple stuff,there are advantages to using known steels,however scrap steel is fun and does have a moral/eco advantage

 

[pumbaa]

I can highly recomend this book . All the examples in it were made by 3rd world blacksmiths at the side of a road from scrap metal . Its a good read and shows how simply it can be done (!!?!!)
I tend to use coke or anthracite in thumbnail sized chunks but a variation of sizes can be used . Even the dust is used , by mixing it with water and building a cave or clean burning area , this is used for forge welding .
The scrappys is a good place for materials , drive shafts springs and antiroll bars are all hardened steel (there is a table of whats what in the above book) , the thing too remember is to soften it first or youll be banging away for hours just to make a dent !!! To deo this you must cool it from bright red as slowly as possible . I used to leave it in the forge and turn the blower off , but aparently if you put it in a box of vermiculite and cover it well it will take ages to cool , which is what you want .
Hope this helps and good luck with your forging
Pumbaa

 

[FGYT]

Pumbaa that book or a cut down version is avalible fron teh BCUK downloads section

Blacksmithing PDF

 

[Ogri the trog]

I have made some turning tools in the past.
Old allen keys to make hook chisels, for making captive ring rattles etc. I have also made a few basic blades from vehicle coil springs battered into submission. Heat source is my kitchen Rayburn, burning coal - so your project is perfectly do'able Jonathan. Before I got my anvil, I used the head of an old sledgehammer and a club hammer to hit the steel with. Its not much more sophisticated now, but then I don't take smithing too seriously.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[robin wood]

Dazzler
"Robin, is en47, eh45 and o1 like a standard type that people will recognise if you ask? Can you buy it in rod sizes that are convenient?"
yep all those grades are recognised by any steel stockholder but many outside sheffield don't stock the engineering grade steels. I buy mine from argent steel in sheffield, I pop in every couple of years buy a 10m length cut up into 14" lengths. I like the idea of recycling and started using car springs but I found that ideally you want 5/8' diameter which means land rover of van springs and it needs so much heat to straighten them out I am not sure about the environmental benefit.

 

[cariboo]

I've only used recovered steel. I've found the experimenting an interesting time. Time consuming but fun.

A good test to see what you have is a simple spark test. Touch your found steel with a grinder and watch the spark.

Scott

http://www.caribooblades.com

 

[robin wood]

"recovered steel. I've found the experimenting an interesting time. Time consuming but fun. "
totaly agree with that and for anyone starting out in blacksmithing there is nothing better than using old springs, its a very forgiving material, forges really easily and you get to refine your technique (fire management etc) whilst straightening, cutting and drawing out your spring before you get to the pointy end that matters.