Banned dogs - thoughts

[sidpost]

@sidpost
Your analogies just do not compare at all with the situation no matter how hard you try. No-one here is a hater; I have always had dogs, I love dogs. There's a huge difference between dogs that are bred to do one thing and then taught to be something else (Alsatians - as in German Shepherd, are herding dogs, some are taught to be guard dogs for example) and dogs that are selectively bred to be aggressive and kill.

There's a lot of new evidence of DNA traits in animals and humans - you can't take traits out of a breed by training.

Yes, as I alluded to in my comment about Cocker Spaniels.

I am not saying users here are haters but, those banning entire breed populations are. If they can ban your dog breed, they can ban mine!

The one most common in the USA is similar to the Michael Vick (famous USA football player) case over Pit Bulls. Similar to Cocker Spaniels with two divergent population groups but banning both out of ignorance of the difference.

Surely every XL Bully in the UK isn't a menace to society but, obviously, some are. Why is that? Why don't they ban bad dogs instead of an entire breed? Are XL Bullies the only dog to kill someone in the UK?

I feel bad for GOOD OWNERS who now have a dog deemed a threat to society because of some bad owners and breeders.

 

[sidpost]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. It is preferable to do that without resorting to implied gross insults IMO.

I'm not trying to insult anyone here in this forum. If you are from one of the abhorrent groups, that is a different topic and further discussion doesn't belong here.

Thankfully most of the bad things I alluded to are bad things of the past! If you are a sympathizer for one of those abhorrent policies or political groups, that is a different topic and is not appropriate for this thread as well.

 

[Pattree]

We lose nothing by banning a breed of dog. We bred the type and there is nothing special about a dog breed. Any mutt could become a breed in just a few (dog) generations. The mongrel street dogs of Bangkok are very different from those of Addis.
This has absolutely no parallel in human race or culture and the comparison is odious.

 

[sidpost]

How significant is the choice of this breed when selecting a dog?

I used the Purina (dog food company) Breed Selector in the beginning to find the right dog breed for me at the time. Later, I believe it moved to Animal Planet TV.

What I learned was a Belgian Mellanois was a bad choice for me at the time. The German Shepherd had the personality and physical traits I needed at the time and I clearly and specifically stated so when talking to my breeder. Today, my life is more sedentary as I am older and don't hike 9 miles a day. The Breed Selector says a Standard Sized Poodle is a better match for my lifestyle today.

I can say NO and get whatever high status or Social Media Star breed I might think I want but, will both the dog and I be happy if I do that? Keep in mind that a lot of bad dog behaviors are because the dog itself does get what it needs to live a happy and complete life.

 

[sidpost]

We lose nothing by banning a breed of dog. We bred the type and there is nothing special about a dog breed. Any mutt could become a breed in just a few (dog) generations. The mongrel street dogs of Bangkok are very different from those of Addis.
This has absolutely no parallel in human race or culture and the comparison is odious.

I disagree generally with most bans. What you are alluding to is what happened in the USA when President Bill Clinton signed the Assault Gun Ban into law. After much rejoicing about no more bayonet lugs and flash suppressors, guess what? 5 seconds with a Hacksaw and Wrench, and a new butt stock later we still had the same semi-automatic rifle!

A blind ban that does not address the causes will not solve the problem! Especially one so easily circumvented as in your dog breeding example.

In terms of Mongrel street dogs in different parts of the world. If you watch BBC or National Geographic television, you will see most feral dog populations have many traits in common not matter where in the world they live. Sure, comparing the Arctic dogs to Equitorial dogs will have differences due to environment but, assuming similar environments the differences are not significant, at least in the studies I am aware of via Nat Geo and BBC TV.

 

[Broch]

Well, thankfully, in the UK, the breed has been banned. Others will follow if the statistics show they maim and kill. I see no more point in discussion here.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

Sorry for creating a monster thread!

 

[Stew]

Sorry for creating a monster thread!

Nothing to apologise for. It’s a good topic.

Personally I’m a dog enthusiast but I do agree with the ban. There’s something with the XL where they just seem to be triggered and I don’t believe it’s down to lack of socialisation and training. Even if it is, I just feel it’s too risky.

 

[Paul_B]

According to BBC Verify, 10 people died because of dog bite injuries in England and Wales last year, if XL Bullies were responsible for 50% of them that's five in a year. if you believe that five deaths per year are grounds to ban XL Bullies then what are your thoughts about the 244 fatal knife attacks in the UK last year. would you argue that knives should be banned also?

Statistica website posted in December 2023 that up to September 2023 there were 16 deaths where the cause of death were from being bitten or struck by a dog. 2022 was the second highest at six deaths. Six jumping to 16 about the time xl Bullies were growing in number. Is that a coincidence?

Statistica article on dog caused deaths.

I've not so far found info on how many of those 16 I the first 9 months of 2023 were by xl Bullies. I have found a bbc article on this from 5 data ago that listed 7 xl bully related deaths.

BBC article on XL bully dogs

The Wikipedia page on this gives 6 xl bully deaths, but the others were mostly wide mouth dogs of fighting breeds such at cane corso, pitbulls or crosses thereof, but also mastiffs and a rottie.

Wikipedia page on uk dog attacks

OK, so what I find interesting is from the Wikipedia page is that wide mouthed dogs are significant in dog caused deaths. As you might know bite force is strongly linked to mouth width in mammals. Iirc jaguars have the strongest bite in big cat breeds. A large rottie has been tested as pretty close to that bite strength. You'd not walk a jaguar bit you'd walk a rottie or xl bully in the UK street?

It is this high potential for harm that concerns me. Whilst you can have a safe dog if you treat it right and are with it, but that doesn't stop the potential. There's people who have trained large, wild animals but you'd not allow them to run down the street. Perhaps dog breeds should be assessed for potential and control /restrictions placed on all of them that are assessed as having sufficient potential for harm.

 

[Paul_B]

I the UK we have what's called gun control. It results in 5% of murders being with firearms. Knife deaths is 3 times as many as gun deaths I read. 84 gun deaths in the year of Dunblane killings. Gun controls brought into law after that incident cut gun deaths we were at 28 gun deaths in 2021/22.

Imagine if the ban of xl Bullies meant 2024 dog deaths is 9 deaths (16 dog deaths -7 xl caused deaths). Is that not a positive? Every death isn't just one lost life, it has repercussions throughout the people who had the attacked and killed person in their life. Family, friends, neighbours. All likely affected by the dog attack and death of that person. It is about improving the situation for all by lowering risks. Crow act was not at all like that. Holocaust was not like that. No comparison at all. Internet warrior argument / Godwin's law.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Sorry for creating a monster thread!

It's an interesting thread. Just one of those subjects where people tend to dig in on their opinions a bit. But generally it highlights that it's not a broad stroke issue and there is more to it than just the extremes.

 

[August Landmesser]

Conflicting professional advice given to well intended owners also plays a part in dog behavioural problems. Veterinarians recommend 8 weeks as the optimum age to get puppies vaccinated and insist pups be kept away from other dogs for 2 weeks after a vaccination. Dog phycologists recommend 8 to 10 weeks as the optimum age for socialisation and advise introducing pups to as many good mannered dogs as possible during that time because puppies socialised during that 2 week window easily develop the right social skills to be let off the lead to play with other dogs at the dog park. This in turn makes it a lot easier to keep the dog stimulated and exercised. Two fundamental needs that if not met become the root cause of a host of destructive and/or antisocial problems that can frustrate owners and lead to extended periods of their life spent languishing in a crate until it does something unthinkable and makes it onto the news.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

Conflicting professional advice given to well intended owners also plays a part in dog behavioural problems. Veterinarians recommend 8 weeks as the optimum age to get puppies vaccinated and insist pups be kept away from other dogs for 2 weeks after a vaccination. Dog phycologists recommend 8 to 10 weeks as the optimum age for socialisation and advise introducing pups to as many good mannered dogs as possible during that time because puppies socialised during that 2 week window easily develop the right social skills to be let off the lead to play with other dogs at the dog park. This in turn makes it a lot easier to keep the dog stimulated and exercised. Two fundamental needs that if not met become the root cause of a host of destructive and/or antisocial problems that can frustrate owners and lead to extended periods of their life spent languishing in a crate until it does something unthinkable and makes it onto the news.

Which is why it's always been my opinion that certain dogs in certain hands is an awful idea and that certain people without the necessary skills to handle certain breeds are often the very same ones that are attracted to said breeds.

A badly trained human can have a badly behaved cockapoo, but we all know that we'd rather face a menacing cockapoo with an incompetant owner saying "oh sorry, he/she is always a bit funny around people" than face a badly behaved XL bully type dog with someone who has a desire to have the dog be their ego extension.

 

[August Landmesser]

It's probably not a popular opinion but nominating the best types of dog for the worst types of owners doesn't really do those dogs any favours. They may not pose a significant threat to people but poor social skills can and will draw aggression out of other dogs, making other dogs look bad for addressing a problem that the owner won't and possibly resulting in painful injuries and an expensive trip to vets.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

@August Landmesser True, but I suppose things are often done in the best intentions (road to hell and all that), in an effort to mitigate the typical ensuing chaos that will come from dog ownership. Additionally "worst types of owners" can sometimes be a bit grey.... does the little old lady who wants a little companion out in the garden with her, but doesn't go much place else to mix with others dogs, come into worst type? or just "not the best type" in which case, for that lady I wouldn't suggest a Malinois, but something a little smaller that can be weighed down by the weight of the lead...
The issue is that when you educate people on what different breeds of dogs characteristics are, anyone who is looking for a "protection dog" or some sort, will get the full lowdown on how "bad bottom" certain types of dogs can be, despite the owner not having the skill to deal with said dog.

Hence why I have a 12.5kg terrier!

 

[Paul_B]

12.5kg but should it be 8,5kg? We have a border terrier, breed standards have it at 7.1kg max weight for a male. Our female is skinny and underweight at 7.5kg with ideal weight about 8,5kg. She's a bit big for the breed standards despite being full pedigree from a guide breeder. I also know another BT male who's really big for the breed, 10kg is lower than ideal weight for his size and build. Breed standards aren't always what you get even with pedigrees.

 

[Paul_B]

There's an American behaviourist society that developed a pass by aggression test with score. They get asked to do them by authorities and rescues. Everyone done gets recorded against the breed and they publish annual reports on these results. Small, toy breeds score high, often higher than staffies. However, I think the fighting breeds, other than a few like staffies and boxers, get high scores too,

All that is interesting but it only records aggression not potential harm. While Chihuahuas might score highly in aggres tests you are not likely to be knocked off you feet by them in first contact and then have to fight for your life from a prone and vulnerable position. This is a higher potential from bigger and heavier breeds. If aggression is there then weight and bite strength is significant.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

12.5kg but should it be 8,5kg? We have a border terrier, breed standards have it at 7.1kg max weight for a male. Our female is skinny and underweight at 7.5kg with ideal weight about 8,5kg. She's a bit big for the breed standards despite being full pedigree from a guide breeder. I also know another BT male who's really big for the breed, 10kg is lower than ideal weight for his size and build. Breed standards aren't always what you get even with pedigrees.

Scottish Terrier, 12.5kg! But yeh I think standards suggest 8-10.5 for them? Shes a muscly little so-and-so but has a nice shape to her (has been a barrel before ), our older one was even bigger framed and she was 14kg in her prime from a champion breeder - go figure.... her brother I think was up to near 16kg!

Scotties to look at don't look particularly heavy/big, but when you come to find jackets or whatnot, you always need medium or even large dog sized stuff, then when you pick them up that's when the real weight is noticed!

@Paul_B With regards to the American society you mention, that is a very interesting concept and one I totally agree with. I believe there is something out there about Labs or Retrievers being responsible for the most bites, but this is likely to be because of the notion that they are the most amazing dogs in the world, great with kids, so docile etc etc etc, so they are picked up by anyone who "WANTS A DOG" without any thoughts behind it, then the doggo is tormented by children until it gets fed up.
My thoughts around doggos, is that I'd rather be faced by a badly behaved small dog that the owner is just a poor owner but with good intentions on wanting to have a lovely dog, than faced by a big doggo where the poor owner has ill intentions of having "Brutus" look tough...

 

[Paul_B]

Retrievers were the largest number of drug bites but they are very common and I bet most bites are on posties anyway. It's the going infinity their territory thing I believe. Certainly among my friends who were bitten, all posties get bitten sooner or later if delivering ti home, got bitten by retrievers and labs mostly.

However most owners of bigger or more dangerous dogs are usually secured better. The safe and friendly goldie isn't kept in secure back garden but allowed to roam., the rottie is kept indoors or out back.

Mind you one house used to have a staffie who waited for the posties then shredded the letters, even ripping them out of the posties hand. That house ended up collecting their post and the posties were glad because they occasionally got nipped through the letterbox!

You can kick an aggressive chihuahua away but try that with an aggressive xl bully or cane corso or Fila Brasileiro or dogo Argentino or tosa! Go on, I'll double dare you! Actually I won't because I don't want your death on my conscience.

I do however think that the owner of the aggressive chihuahua should sort the aggression out or restrict it just as a bigger dog. I think as my aggressive dog needs dealing with. Don't just laugh at the tiny chihuahua snarling away at everyone or every dog it passes. Get a behaviourist to stop that or put it down. Just like you should do with a bigger dog. Aggression should not be allowed by any dog owner. It is not fair on the dog because it is a sign it's not happy dog. There's something wrong to be fixed if possible.

 

[C_Claycomb]

In the news today…verdict on owner of cane corso who mauled a female chimney sweep because the owner didn’t shut a door. Massive injuries that could not be closed with stitches. Owner, temperament, and physical capabilities.