Badger Baiting Arrests
- Thread starter Scots_Charles_River
- Start date
- Status
Put their dogs down, fine them and confiscate any transport and equipment they used just as is done to those caught herrying nests of birds of prey or poaching on the salmon beats, ban them from keeping animals, they get a criminal record......
No, not much else we can do to them. 'Big' men, with rotten souls
M
No, not much else we can do to them. 'Big' men, with rotten souls
M
. 'Big' men, with rotten souls
M
or perhaps "Big Women" - no gender was given in the article. There were a load of women arrested at a dog fight in dartmoor when I was younger - including both the owners.
Scum comes with both sets of plumbing
Hardly the dogs fault is it.
If the dogs are not suffering and can be rehabilitated and re-homed then all the better.
Put the owners down instead.
How do you train a dog not to behave that way when the triggers are flipped again ? Can it be guaranteed to work, safely, be turned into a family and neighbourhood safe pet ? Or should I say, can they? since they're fought in numbers.
Dogs that are 'beasted', and yes, that is a term used, might be fine most of the time with 'immediate' family members, but not reliably safe with anyone else. Been there, my brother took on the care of the dog, lovely bitch; nearly ate the Doctor visiting next door, had a go at every other dog around too, no cat or other small mammal was safe near her, yet she would have defended my sons to the bitter end, not their playmates though
There's also the whole, "If your dog is found to be engaged in this activity, it will be put down." deterrant.....we're not allowed to put folks down; don't know if that's a good thing or not
BR, I do take your point, but I know of no women arrested in this area over the baiting. My reference to 'big' men is cultural; but they only think they're big men
cheers,
Toddy
Dogs that are 'beasted', and yes, that is a term used, might be fine most of the time with 'immediate' family members, but not reliably safe with anyone else. Been there, my brother took on the care of the dog, lovely bitch; nearly ate the Doctor visiting next door, had a go at every other dog around too, no cat or other small mammal was safe near her, yet she would have defended my sons to the bitter end, not their playmates though
There's also the whole, "If your dog is found to be engaged in this activity, it will be put down." deterrant.....we're not allowed to put folks down; don't know if that's a good thing or not
BR, I do take your point, but I know of no women arrested in this area over the baiting. My reference to 'big' men is cultural; but they only think they're big men
cheers,
Toddy
As in attacking Badgers
Can't say as i have ever unintentionally encountered a badger, so it's unlikely the dog will come across one again.
If you mean running off into badger sets, then yes this can be trained out of dogs.
Nothing can be guaranteed 100%.
Husbands and wifes kill each other daily around the world, mothers kill their children, children kill their parents, parents abuse and beat their kids.
Dogs are no different, they have good days and bad days.
With the right training you can spot when a dog is likely to be having a bad day and if it's likely to bite, but then that's the same with any dog.
Dogs that are 'beasted', and yes, that is a term used, might be fine most of the time with 'immediate' family members, but not reliably safe with anyone else. Been there, my brother took on the care of the dog, lovely bitch; nearly ate the Doctor visiting next door, had a go at every other dog around too, no cat or other small mammal was safe near her, yet she would have defended my sons to the bitter end, not their playmates though
Vast majority of the time this is down to the humans around the dog, if your nervous about a visitor the dog will pick up on this.
With time and patience both the owners and dog can be trained out of the attacking other people and/or dogs.
There's also the whole, "If your dog is found to be engaged in this activity, it will be put down." deterrant.....we're not allowed to put folks down; don't know if that's a good thing or not
These people are breeding, rearing and training dogs to attack and kill other animals often getting massively injured or dropping dead in the process.
To believe that these people would care if a dog is taken from them and put down strikes me as a very naive.
Obviously common sense needs to be used here, some of the bigger dogs with severe behavioural problems will need a lot of time and effort from an extremely experienced handler/owner.
Some might even be THAT bad no one is willing to take the time to try and fix it.
In my experience though the vast majority or abused dogs turn out to be extremely good dogs, that even after being mistreated their entire life still trust and become attached to families.
So i personally believe that a sweeping statement like
is both morally reprehensible, unfair and just plain wrong.
Again it's not the dogs fault is it, they were simply trying to do what they were trained to do and please their owners.
We're going to have to disagree on this one. Lanarkshire, like much of Scotland is very 'urban', with lots of surrounding rural. People live in close proximity to people is my point. If the dog's not securely safe and reliable, then it gets put down.
The local Dog's Trust, the RSSPCA are all under strain trying to home dogs as it is. Reality says that the majority of those trained to fight will never be given all the effort or re-training.
Dogs so aggressively trained don't just go for badgers, and unless the handler is constantly and consistantly 'in control' then, tbh, I don't think it's worth the risk.
I like dogs fine, but too many people live too busy lives to train them properly. The deterrant factor is important too; the cretins brag
Come to think on it, we have the local wildlife crimes officer on the forum. Hopefully he might see the thread and comment as well
cheers,
Toddy
The local Dog's Trust, the RSSPCA are all under strain trying to home dogs as it is. Reality says that the majority of those trained to fight will never be given all the effort or re-training.
Dogs so aggressively trained don't just go for badgers, and unless the handler is constantly and consistantly 'in control' then, tbh, I don't think it's worth the risk.
I like dogs fine, but too many people live too busy lives to train them properly. The deterrant factor is important too; the cretins brag
Come to think on it, we have the local wildlife crimes officer on the forum. Hopefully he might see the thread and comment as well
cheers,
Toddy
Agreed that the perpetrators are unlikely to be deterred. For them the dogs are nothing more than a money making asset; if they lose one they will just think of it as a business expense and replace it.
On the other hand money is also likely a problem for officials. They cannot normally afford the expense and time neccessary to rehabilitate the dogs when it could be used to help more easily adoptable rescues.
TBH the dogs agression is more than just "trained" in. The perpetrators likely breed the dogs for agression as well. Any deliberaltely bred agression would be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.
We're going to have to disagree on this one. Lanarkshire, like much of Scotland is very 'urban', with lots of surrounding rural. People live in close proximity to people is my point. If the dog's not securely safe and reliable, then it gets put down.
The local Dog's Trust, the RSSPCA are all under strain trying to home dogs as it is. Reality says that the majority of those trained to fight will never be given all the effort or re-training.
Dogs so aggressively trained don't just go for badgers, and unless the handler is constantly and consistantly 'in control' then, tbh, I don't think it's worth the risk.
I like dogs fine, but too many people live too busy lives to train them properly. The deterrant factor is important too; the cretins brag
Come to think on it, we have the local wildlife crimes officer on the forum. Hopefully he might see the thread and comment as well
cheers,
Toddy
All i can say is thank goodness the decision does not ride on your shoulders then.
For some dogs in some areas i agree if there is not the right people or resources to rehabilitate that dog it would be better for it to be put out of it's misery than left in a cage 24 hours a day for the rest of it's life.
To have a blanket statement that ALL dogs caught in this activity is just plain wrong though.
In my experience (working in shelters) the amount of dogs that require THAT much work are very very few and far between.
The vast vast vast majority of dogs, even those that are bred and trained to fight do not actually want to fight, dogs are a sociable animal inherently so it really doesn't take much to get them back into the pack mentality.
Again in my experience if you walk around places where a lot of owners walk their dogs you will see many many aggressive dogs that have not been bought up to fight, i've had dogs my entire life and have several incidents with "pet" dogs attacking my dogs.
Each dog taken from these circumstances should be taken on it's own merits, to put a blanket kill em all plan into effect is (and i'm sorry but i cannot think of another word that sums it up so completely) just ignorant and to me shows that someone has an opinion on the matter without having any knowledge or experience in these cases.
You can't breed in aggression.
Aggression is born 100% out of training and circumstances.
What these people breed is inherent traits like strong necks, ability to take a lot of pain, strong jaws.
Even then if you pick a stereotypical breed like say a pitbull, i've seen many pitbulls in the US being breed to fight that are timid to the point of cowering.
They use these non aggressive dogs as bait and training for the more aggressive dogs (again another reason to take each dog on it's merits rather than a blanket extermination), so even if you try to breed as aggressive dog it does not work.
The worst case of the most aggressive dogs do require a LOT of training from the right handler, but there are very very very few dogs that with enough training cannot be as sociable as any other dog out there, i'm talking 1 out of 1000 here.
Exactly. The timid ones are not bred. The agressive ones aare. And yes it does work very well, it takes 10 or 20 generations but it DOES work. I've seen the timid ones too but I've seen far more that were born with the desire to rip small (or even large) animals to pieces.
It's the same process we use to breed bird dogs; they point instinctively without ever needing to be trained to do so (all traing we give them is to RESTRAIN that urge and learn the etiquette of pointing in pairs)
Also we deliberately breed coon hounds to instintively have the prey drive to hunt; whereas it's deliberately bred out of other breeds.
I don't suppose you could train up a mink for me so I can use it for rabbiting do you?
We are talking specifically about dogs here in connection with the type of people that use them for badger baiting, i don't see what a species not connected with either the thread or this specific discussion has to do with it
I am sorry to have to say this santaman but in my experience you are talking rubbish.
The reason i feel i have to put my opinion so strongly is because:
a/ It so absolutely positively a million miles off the real world experiences
b/ My experiences are SO different i'm thinking either your having a bad day mate or you have absolutely no first hand experience with dogs and dog breeding.
With my own 2 eyes more times than my hope for the human race can take, i've seen some of a litter that are extremely nasty and others in the exact same litter that will cower in a corner for 20 mins if you raise your voice.
Again from the exact same litter.
EVERY litter has the strong domineering type of dog and the runt of the litter, it makes absolutely no difference on the breed.
For reference the smaller dogs i've come across tend to be the nastiest, this is often the case simply because the owners allow this sort of behaviour because they think it's "cute" or funny in a small dog.
The instinct to hunt is something that is completely different to dogs attacking people and other dogs.
A well trained retriever will return with the kill without a single puncture mark on the flesh.
A well trained lerture will chase and kill a rabbit or hare shake it till it's dead and hold (not chew or maul) till the handler gives the release command.
My Jack Russell will go down holes if i tell her, yet not once when we are out walking will she take off on her own down one.
Look at police and armed force guard dogs, these are not bred to be nasty, they are trained with a certain amount of 100% controlled aggression.
The dogs are not bred to be aggressive, the dog breed is selected for main reasons, size (for stopping people) intelligence, speed, duration and an important thing that is often overlooked, docile when not working.
If you see these dogs at work you really would not want them anywhere near you, yet the majority of handlers i know when given the choice take their dog home and socialise it with their family.
Aggressiveness CANNOT be bred into a dog, it is born 100% out of training and circumstances.
So that training..........funny how army war dogs don't 'retire', nor do prison guard dogs, and yet, the guide dogs are carefully bred for their own specific traits. I know of a failed guide dog, it was too friendly , but was told that was a rarity.
Similarly the sheep dogs, the deerhounds, the lurcher..........all with distinct characteristics, all carefully nurtured and bred into their lines. You're right too though, there's always the sport, the one a bit different. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's better neutered.
No, I'm glad it's not my decision, but I stand by it. A dog trained to attack, to be aggressive, when there are too many dogs anyway ? In our quiet civilised country ? put it down.
Toddy
, but was told that was a rarity.Similarly the sheep dogs, the deerhounds, the lurcher..........all with distinct characteristics, all carefully nurtured and bred into their lines. You're right too though, there's always the sport, the one a bit different. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's better neutered.
No, I'm glad it's not my decision, but I stand by it. A dog trained to attack, to be aggressive, when there are too many dogs anyway ? In our quiet civilised country ? put it down.
Toddy
So that training..........funny how army war dogs don't 'retire', nor do prison guard dogs, and yet, the guide dogs are carefully bred for their own specific traits. I know of a failed guide dog, it was too friendly
Similarly the sheep dogs, the deerhounds, the lurcher..........all with distinct characteristics, all carefully nurtured and bred into their lines. You're right too though, there's always the sport, the one a bit different. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's better neutered.
No, I'm glad it's not my decision, but I stand by it. A dog trained to attack, to be aggressive, when there are too many dogs anyway ? In our quiet civilised country ? put it down.
Toddy
Toddy,
With all due respect i think you need to read up a bit more.
Of course ex-force and police dogs are retired out, i have a few mates that insist on only taking ex-forces dogs, obviously they all have their own personalities that come through but they ALL made absolutely fantastic pets after their hard service years.
I also think you are going astray here with your opinion,
We are talking specifically here about dogs that were taken as part of a badger baiting operation, you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that these were "trained to attack"or "to be aggressive", we don't even know if the dogs that were taken are in actual fact ones that were used for fighting.
I could be wrong as you have not specifically stated it, but from reading between the lines i think that you seem to have a preconceived notion that the dogs taken will be pitbull's, Rottweilers etc.
To be honest i have absolutely no idea if this is the case, but i would be extremely surprised if it is, as these scum usually go for smaller Terrier breads specifically Patterdale Terrier's.
As a Terrier owner myself i can tell you that a 12lb dog doesn't offer much of a threat to society, and although they can be nippy if we trained they absolutely fantastic pet dogs.
Also forgot to say that there is absolutely no mention of the ages of these dogs, can't see how a Patterdale Terrier puppy is going to be much of a attack dog.
Hardly a threat to society is it.
Hardly a threat to society is it.
- Status
