Back To Nature. [Rewilding by Monbiot]
- Thread starter Dave
- Start date
Free at point of need though, and not refused because one cannot pay.
It's actually something that's not taught or stressed enough here I think, that every single person who pays or paid National Insurance is paying for our Health Service.
M
It's actually something that's not taught or stressed enough here I think, that every single person who pays or paid National Insurance is paying for our Health Service.
M
"I've usually found it (Monbiot's column) to be describing things that have already happened, using references..."
Yes he's excellent.
Yes he's excellent.
Mmmm, yes and no, every person who pays national insurance every week, today, are not paying for themselves.
They are paying for the NHS to keep ticking over right now. If they stopped paying. POOF! no NHS. So all that money we've paid in all our working lives, doesnt automatically mean were entitled to any healthcare in the future!
Its not like the workers today, paying NI, for the NHS, each have a private little pot, they pay into every week, and at the end of their lives they can dip into it.
The people coming after us, will be paying for our helathcare, when we need it most, if we still have it. [If they banned private healthcare, the NHS would get a windfall]
The people, like my Dad, who needs constant healthcare, did pay in his whole life, and should have had it waiting for him, but central government squandered that money in a number of stupid ways. PFI and random political causes. So were paying for his healthcare.
I think the threat at the moment, is pressure from large american lobby groups, who stand to make billions, if our NHS was fully privatised. At the expense of our misery of course. Unless we come up with a load of money from somewhere.
I'd hate it if we had to end up with an american system, of fully privatised healthcare, which very few could afford. I think I read over 80% of homeless americans are people with chronic illness, etc.
There was an article in the DT the other week, where a number of senior military officers said trident was basically a massive waste of money. Mmmmm.
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Still no though Mary. Its not necessarily free at the point of need. There are still procedures and therapies that are effective, but not available on the NHS because NICE deems them too expensive. You can still get them privately though.
The NHS is an insurance scheme, like BUPA. Thats why its called National Insurance. Everyone pays who earns above the threshold. And like any other insurance scheme, if the premiums stop, so does the healthcare.
If you need emergency healthcare then yes its free at use, if you happen to be in the UK (the same as it is in the US). But if its routine treatment you need and you are not a UK citizen, then it is not free - like any other insurance scheme (the same as it is in the US)
If your national insurance payments only went to healthcare we'd have less of an issue. A lot of it was put towards Trident.
Response to British Red.
I disagree. Even if someone pays no 'premiums'/ National Insurance, they are still given treatment like everyone else. Neither is their treatment stopped if they can no longer pay those 'premiums', nor reduced to an inferior level.
The NHS is not perfect, but it's a damned sight better than the vast majority of alternatives.
That it chooses which particular drugs to use, i.e. values them on a judgement scale of effectiveness and cost, is pretty normal. Private insurance does so too.
I know you have had issues with the NHS, but I know a heck of a lot of people who have had greater ones with private insurance, and when they screw up, the patient is rapidly deposited in an NHS hospital.
I think we have rather taken this thread a little too OTT. I know it's already veered off course, but we're in a totally different ballgame now
M
I disagree. Even if someone pays no 'premiums'/ National Insurance, they are still given treatment like everyone else. Neither is their treatment stopped if they can no longer pay those 'premiums', nor reduced to an inferior level.
The NHS is not perfect, but it's a damned sight better than the vast majority of alternatives.
That it chooses which particular drugs to use, i.e. values them on a judgement scale of effectiveness and cost, is pretty normal. Private insurance does so too.
I know you have had issues with the NHS, but I know a heck of a lot of people who have had greater ones with private insurance, and when they screw up, the patient is rapidly deposited in an NHS hospital.
I think we have rather taken this thread a little too OTT. I know it's already veered off course, but we're in a totally different ballgame now
M
That is simply untrue.
National Insurance contributions in 2014/15 were £110,046m. The cost of the NHS was £113,300m. Not only did all NI payments go on the NHS but more besides
Sources :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461722/Aug15_Receipts.xlsx
http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/key-statistics-on-the-nhs
I agree with Mary this is now political and OT, but couldn't let that statement stand. I'm out.
Yes Toddy, sorry, that's down to me in a way really. I think my point should be that a simpler, healthier more natural life can still be had if we all buy into it, which is why many of us enjoy Bushcraft.
We have become very complacent about technology, especially medical advances; more focused on a life of living longer and not better; It galls me when I have 80 year 90 old patients wanting to pay me for a walking stick and feeling guilty about taking the place of someone "who really needs it" with the amazing stoicism of "there's plenty worse off than me". They have an appreciation of what it was like before the NHS existed and still see it as a luxury, unfortunately many don't.
Its all about balance, not just in what we waste
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We have become very complacent about technology, especially medical advances; more focused on a life of living longer and not better; It galls me when I have 80 year 90 old patients wanting to pay me for a walking stick and feeling guilty about taking the place of someone "who really needs it" with the amazing stoicism of "there's plenty worse off than me". They have an appreciation of what it was like before the NHS existed and still see it as a luxury, unfortunately many don't.
Its all about balance, not just in what we waste
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Red. I suggest you look into how and why the national insurance fund surplus was and is spent. Happy to discuss over pm.
My comment refers to the last 20 years
My comment refers to the last 20 years
But how we think. Spending more time in the outdoors does that for me; in those countries where there are still large predators and where humans are not always top of the foodchain, not in control the environment and have to consider the consequences of their own actions, I can only imagine it must make the contrasts of balance even more humbling... So far not something I have experienced, only try to empathise with, so I would appreciate some comments and I can make amends by getting the thread back on track too!
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There is no surplus and hasn't been for years. If you have audited government sourced figures that say otherwise, please send to me
Sorry folks, but there is of hypothecation of tax income to specific expenditure. So, NI payments don't get allocated to the NHS in exactly the same way as Road Tax doesn't get allocated to roads. It goes into current income which is divvied out as per government choice.
There is also this misunderstanding of state pension schemes. Your state pension contributions don't go into a huge pot of money set aside to paying you your old age pension in 30 years. It is used to pay current pensioners. If the Government had to set aside funds to cover state pensions payable in the future (which private pension schemes HAVE to do) then the National Debt would increase by around $1.2 Trillion.............
There is also this misunderstanding of state pension schemes. Your state pension contributions don't go into a huge pot of money set aside to paying you your old age pension in 30 years. It is used to pay current pensioners. If the Government had to set aside funds to cover state pensions payable in the future (which private pension schemes HAVE to do) then the National Debt would increase by around $1.2 Trillion.............
Well I agree with post No 74.
Pretty please folks, mind the no politics rule, or take a discussion of the NHS to a new thread.
M
Pretty please folks, mind the no politics rule, or take a discussion of the NHS to a new thread.
M
To return to the OP….
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34510869
"A team of wolf hunters is operating in a region of the French Alps to kill wolves that are seen as a threat to livestock.
The teams were supplied by the state after pressure from shepherds and farmers.
In defiance of EU law, the French government has also relaxed the hunting rules to help farmers defend stocks.
However conservationists argue that wolves are vital to ensuring a proper balance in nature.
In addition, the owner of an estate in the Scottish Highlands has said he is pressing ahead with his plan to create a fenced-in South African-style game reserve as a means of reintroducing the extinct species to the UK."
M
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34510869
"A team of wolf hunters is operating in a region of the French Alps to kill wolves that are seen as a threat to livestock.
The teams were supplied by the state after pressure from shepherds and farmers.
In defiance of EU law, the French government has also relaxed the hunting rules to help farmers defend stocks.
However conservationists argue that wolves are vital to ensuring a proper balance in nature.
In addition, the owner of an estate in the Scottish Highlands has said he is pressing ahead with his plan to create a fenced-in South African-style game reserve as a means of reintroducing the extinct species to the UK."
M
Well obviously you are entitled to your opinion Boatman but I don't think the facts support your assertions. The chaplaincy budget in even large hospitals is tiny - to the point where scrapping it would make negligible difference to the overall fairly huge budget that is required to run a hospital. Also a large proportion of chaplaincy provision is provided by volunteers at no cost to the NHS. Patients in hospitals are often fearful, lonely and in emotional as well as physical crisis. doctors and nurses are overworked and just don't have time to comfort, talk to or simply spend a little time with these people. That's not a criticism of doctors or nurses just a recognition of the demands placed upon them. chaplains can and do help to meet this need. A persons spiritual well being (whether they are of any particular faith or non) is an integral part of their overall well being and numerous studies have demonstrated that.
As for complementary 'non medicine' - that's pretty broad. Do you have any particular therapies in mind rather than just lumping every thing together? The NHS offers ralatively few complementary therapies. Where they do it is because they are cost effective. NHS trusts these days are run by business managers - everything is carefully costed versus its effectivity. Therapies aren't offered because they are touchy feely or nice but purely on the basis of if they can deliver results in a cost efficient way.
Obviously im biased but I'd like to see more complementary treatment offered by the NHS. In both China and India, traditional medicine runs along side 'orthodox' medicine in hospitals. They combine the best from each and do so because they've shown it to be an effective and cost efficient model. In the treatment of esp. chronic conditions traditional medicine has been shown to be also cheaper.
