Back To Nature. [Rewilding by Monbiot]
- Thread starter Dave
- Start date
"Disneyparking" is not environmentalism... it's... well lets just leave it at the correct word is unmentionable on a family orientated forum.
See all those "empty" bits of land, they're not empty, they are owned and farmed. Every damned inch of this island is owned by someone. It's their choice, but that choice has to take account of their neighbours too.
There's another issue, and it's a big one, and the Lynx is a classic example. There comes a point where a population pool is too small. Zoos have huge issues trying to keep genetics healthy. How many wolves do you think it would need to keep their population healthy ? How long before a pack becomes inbred, or breeds out with domestic dogs ? and like all the comments about how wolves are shy and keep away from people
they need food, they choose the easiest food to find. It's one thing to have domestic foxes running through the gardens (and have you seen the size of them ? there are some round here that are as big as labradors, they are certainly bigger than collies).
The native wild cat struggles, how the hell are lynx going to do any better ? Deer calves…..that's all of oooh maybe two months in the year. What about the rest of the time ? Wee roe deer ? maybe ? how about the real problem of the red deer ? and lets not forget the woolly speedbumps. That leaves birds, the ones that the hunting/shooting fraternity pay good money to use as sport, and in doing so help support estate economies.
This island isn't empty, it's blooming busy.
M
There's another issue, and it's a big one, and the Lynx is a classic example. There comes a point where a population pool is too small. Zoos have huge issues trying to keep genetics healthy. How many wolves do you think it would need to keep their population healthy ? How long before a pack becomes inbred, or breeds out with domestic dogs ? and like all the comments about how wolves are shy and keep away from people
they need food, they choose the easiest food to find. It's one thing to have domestic foxes running through the gardens (and have you seen the size of them ? there are some round here that are as big as labradors, they are certainly bigger than collies).The native wild cat struggles, how the hell are lynx going to do any better ? Deer calves…..that's all of oooh maybe two months in the year. What about the rest of the time ? Wee roe deer ? maybe ? how about the real problem of the red deer ? and lets not forget the woolly speedbumps. That leaves birds, the ones that the hunting/shooting fraternity pay good money to use as sport, and in doing so help support estate economies.
This island isn't empty, it's blooming busy.
M
See all those "empty" bits of land, they're not empty, they are owned and farmed. Every damned inch of this island is owned by someone. It's their choice, but that choice has to take account of their neighbours too.
There's another issue, and it's a big one, and the Lynx is a classic example. There comes a point where a population pool is too small. Zoos have huge issues trying to keep genetics healthy. How many wolves do you think it would need to keep their population healthy ? How long before a pack becomes inbred, or breeds out with domestic dogs ? and like all the comments about how wolves are shy and keep away from people
The native wild cat struggles, how the hell are lynx going to do any better ? Deer calves…..that's all of oooh maybe two months in the year. What about the rest of the time ? Wee roe deer ? maybe ? how about the real problem of the red deer ? and lets not forget the woolly speedbumps. That leaves birds, the ones that the hunting/shooting fraternity pay good money to use as sport, and in doing so help support estate economies.
This island isn't empty, it's blooming busy.
M
Exactly that! I would only add the word 'tiny' to the phrase "This island isn't empty, it's blooming busy."
Not sure to be honest... personally I think if wolves were reintroduced they would be vilified by everybody who's watched The Grey. The Grey did for wolves what Jaws did for sharks... all of a sudden their species were man-eaters. Thankfully people were not as extreme on the wolves as they were on the sharks.
As Andy pointed out though, it takes one dog walker to wander, a tidgy domestic dog to get munched and the tabloids would have a field day. Our populist politicians would jump on the bandwagon to have the wolves put down, or at the very least locked in some sort of glorified zoo... anyone who has been to Blackpool Zoo knows the misery of some of those animals in their supposedly custom-built environments.
As Andy pointed out though, it takes one dog walker to wander, a tidgy domestic dog to get munched and the tabloids would have a field day. Our populist politicians would jump on the bandwagon to have the wolves put down, or at the very least locked in some sort of glorified zoo... anyone who has been to Blackpool Zoo knows the misery of some of those animals in their supposedly custom-built environments.
I have another worry.
The wolves currently moving across Germany, around the Hamburg area, are moving west. How long is it before they arrive on the west coast of France, disguise themselves as guide dogs to board the Eurostar and end up in south east of England?
The wolves currently moving across Germany, around the Hamburg area, are moving west. How long is it before they arrive on the west coast of France, disguise themselves as guide dogs to board the Eurostar and end up in south east of England?
I think we do, but I seriously doubt that having them on islands such as ours is a good idea nowadays.
The last one was shot in the Highlands of Scotland nearly 300 years ago……in the days when people lived a lot closer to nature than we do now. If 'they' thought it was a bad idea having wolves and bears around back then, when the population was much less than it is now
I think it's something some choob will try, and it'll get out of hand and suddenly there'll be trouble.
Beavers are already vilified by those who live near them, so are the wild boar (and those are potentially really hazardous, even if they are good eating. Wolves I'm told aren't, unlike dogs which apparantly are ) mink are trouble, so were coypu, and the kites are making some folks wonder too. Wolves ?
I sometimes think that Monbiot believes he can baffle enough folks if he just preaches long enough
M
The last one was shot in the Highlands of Scotland nearly 300 years ago……in the days when people lived a lot closer to nature than we do now. If 'they' thought it was a bad idea having wolves and bears around back then, when the population was much less than it is now
I think it's something some choob will try, and it'll get out of hand and suddenly there'll be trouble.
Beavers are already vilified by those who live near them, so are the wild boar (and those are potentially really hazardous, even if they are good eating. Wolves I'm told aren't, unlike dogs which apparantly are ) mink are trouble, so were coypu, and the kites are making some folks wonder too. Wolves ?
I sometimes think that Monbiot believes he can baffle enough folks if he just preaches long enough
M
I just feel deep down, we would be a richer place for it, even when any and all mishaps are included. Cant be any more scientific about it than that.
The thing I worry about when anything like this is discussed is a repeat of Yellowstone.
Wolves eradicated, natural predator to the elk, elk overgrazes, beaver numbers reduce, plants lost for anyone who doesn't know about Yellowstone.
Yes, they reintroduced wolves and its probably quite successful for the most part, but that is over a vast area... in somewhere as small as the UK... or lets be honest, Scotland, I think it would be a disaster. Especially in the short term.
Wolves eradicated, natural predator to the elk, elk overgrazes, beaver numbers reduce, plants lost for anyone who doesn't know about Yellowstone.
Yes, they reintroduced wolves and its probably quite successful for the most part, but that is over a vast area... in somewhere as small as the UK... or lets be honest, Scotland, I think it would be a disaster. Especially in the short term.
When Wolves first joined our ancestors as part of the pack, they were better and smarter than us in almost every way, except intelligence. Better hunters, better sight, faster, better smell, better travellers, miles fitter, able to warn us of approaching predators at night, etc etc.
Its argued that because the wolves joined with us, we had more time and space to adapt into the *intelligent animals* we are today. Arts, Science, discovery, all made the more possible because of our canine companions.
*hahaha*
Its argued that because the wolves joined with us, we had more time and space to adapt into the *intelligent animals* we are today. Arts, Science, discovery, all made the more possible because of our canine companions.
*hahaha*
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Thankfully the narrator read the Wikipedia page before he made that documentary.
Even his voice makes me want to punch him though... Monbiot and I have history and are not meant to be I fear.What we've learned from Yellowstone though is simply that our own moral code can not be transfered onto animals... there is a word for it, but it escapes me. We viewed wolves as tyrants, as a nuisance and without a second thought, killed them off, but the effect on Yellowstone was disastrous.
Switch to Scotland, and as Mary points out... man and beast could not coexist in such a relatively small area and one of them had to leave. Nowadays the reintroduction of the wolves would take more than just dropping them off in acclimatisation pens because the natural prey and the human population of Scotland would have to be taken into account. For every tourist a wolf might attract, another one might stay away due to the modern day fear of wolves, when in fact wolves don't behave anything like the majority of people think they do.
That said, if Scotland gets another 'once in a lifetime' vote... reintroduce the wolves. It would be kinder to the population!
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Someone fed a starving puppy, probably one that belonged to a beta mother who 'shouldn't' have bred in the pack. It grew up feral but useful….and others did too.
"This wolf we know today as the modern gray wolf, which is the dog's sister but not its ancestor - the dog shows a closer genetic relationship with the extinct megafaunal wolf."….the implication is that the modern wolf, tamed, is not our dog.
If it were easy to keep wolves as pets folks would do it more often I reckon. That they don't, and most societies actively cull any interbreedings they find, either trying to keep the wolves genetically 'pure' or keep the wolfiness out of the dogs, is quite telling I think.
Quite an interesting read on Wikipedia on the domestication of the dog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
M
"This wolf we know today as the modern gray wolf, which is the dog's sister but not its ancestor - the dog shows a closer genetic relationship with the extinct megafaunal wolf."….the implication is that the modern wolf, tamed, is not our dog.
If it were easy to keep wolves as pets folks would do it more often I reckon. That they don't, and most societies actively cull any interbreedings they find, either trying to keep the wolves genetically 'pure' or keep the wolfiness out of the dogs, is quite telling I think.
Quite an interesting read on Wikipedia on the domestication of the dog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
M
Yep, or maybe an outcast followed the humans and one took pity on it, and threw it scraps, we ending up breeding the ones which were less vicious, and killed the others.
There was a recent experiment with wild silver foxes, doing the same thing, and after just a few generations, they changed colours, to black and white, and grew dog ears!
There was a recent experiment with wild silver foxes, doing the same thing, and after just a few generations, they changed colours, to black and white, and grew dog ears!
Holy moly... just watching the video of the Siberian experiment... that is insane!
8 generations to breed a tame fox, 50 to turn a fox into a pet. That is weird, but weirder is the opposite they've bred... the aggressive foxes bred to be ultra-aggresive! In fact, that isn't just weird, its scary!
8 generations to breed a tame fox, 50 to turn a fox into a pet. That is weird, but weirder is the opposite they've bred... the aggressive foxes bred to be ultra-aggresive! In fact, that isn't just weird, its scary!
I thought that wolves were descended from things like Arabian and Indian animals, not European ones (Which by old accounts are scary, as opposed to N American ones.)
The idea that humans were domesticated by dogs is a clever and believable one.
The idea that humans were domesticated by dogs is a clever and believable one.
