Alternative outer layer clothing systems?

[Paul_B]

In another thread we've been talking about Paramo and buffalo double pile clothing systems and it got me thinking if there's anything else out there that's an alternative system?

DP is a weather resistant clothing system that doesn't need an outer membrane layer. It works well for those who m find it suits them. It's not a universally accepted option.

Paramo and the nikwax analogy system is similarly great for those who find it suits their needs but there's detractors for whom they don't work. It's not a universally accepted system because there's people who don't believe it works and others can't believe it works without a membrane.

There's analogy and DP clones even some brands making nikwax analogy clothing under licence to nikwax and paramo. But are there any other systems! Can there be any other systems if those two basically have the non membrane technology options covered?

 

[Billy-o]

... because there's people who don't believe it works

Aye, to keep the rain off, faith is all you need. An alternative system all of its own

 

[TLM]

Anything with a tight weave and DWR or any other proper water repellant. A very loose raincoat that lets air to circulate underneath possibly with wents. They all work upto a point, even an umbrella.

 

[Billy-o]

Yes. This provocation from Andy Kirkpatrick often circulates at this point.

 

[Paul_B]

Watched that again. He's convincing in his arguments but have to say there's a use for some membrane jackets? I used to own a good windstopper jacket. It was my go to winter jacket for active use at one time and meant I rarely used my alternative, a Paramo Alta original design. It's about starting off cool or even cold so you are at the right temperature when active I found. That jacket has kept me warm walking in North York Moors, Scotland, Wales, dales and lakes in winter months? I often looked like an abdominal snowman the way the snow stuck to the outside of the jacket in blizzards.

It's biggest drawback was that if windy the thickest fleece layer was on the outside with only a thin inside of the membrane. Very strong winds and less active them I would get cold. No good for car shuttles after kayak trips!! Walking was good though.

More modern membranes actually have perforations so they're more breathable so better than older versions. It's all about what works and everything can work but can fail to work.

The softshell described by be AK has a big drawback, they need to work against the skin!! One layer with either too hot down to too cold. Unless you defeat the system by using multiple layers I reckon.

 

[Billy-o]

Well, in the same way that you keep extra layers of backup and alternative clothing in your rucksack, so it is good to keep items of different weight to swap out. Layering fleece fits the bill here too

 

[Paul_B]

Of course Paramo is a softshell that says it's ok to layer over something highly wicking. Montane Extreme smock and jacket was sold for wearing over a wicking base layer, buffalo DP against the skin. Marmot driclime I've never read about it needing to be against the skin.

Personally I've experienced softshells that are not a two layer system but a single denier weave softshell with a DWR treatment that work very well in a wide range of conditions. Better in winter cold than autumn wet though.

Back in my Paramo days I used a parameta mountain jacket under a buffalo windshirt in summer. Warm but kept rain out for a couple of hours. That was their first forays into fleeces and they stopped short of saying it was analogy with a windshirt.

 

[Paul_B]

Well, in the same way that you keep extra layers of backup and alternative clothing in your rucksack, so it is good to keep items of different weight to swap out. Layering fleece fits the bill here too

He's kind of saying it's about not layering but single layer with at most an extra over layer in real dreik

 

[Laurentius]

Windproof is an important factor in preventing chill, so a fine weave is essential. Pertex is pretty good, but so is the old Rohan airlight poly cotton mix, which dries extremely quickly. What you don't want something that soaks up and holds on to water. If you are moving, you are creating heat to keep yourself dry next to the skin, when you stop, that is when you want a truly impermeable layer.

 

[Paul_B]

What I can't understand is why there's cotton analogy? Take Paramo and replace the outer synthetic layer that doesn't absorb moisture and replace with cotton that works by absorbing moisture. Surely that would create a kind of barrier to the action of the pump liner?

 

[Billy-o]

He's kind of saying it's about not layering but single layer with at most an extra over layer in real dreik

I see your point, but would add that I have an old Haglofs fleece which I vividly remember once wearing out for a run in the cold. I was sweating away for an hour plus in it. Then I noticed that the outside of the jacket was covered in a dew ... basically my sweat, which has wicked to the outer surface. I say this to demonstrate/indicate that a fleece layer on top of that would also wick that water away. Two fleece layers (a microfleece and a deeper pile perhaps for preference) does work in this softshell system.

On the other hand: Have you looked at the Rab Vapor-Rise Guide? New longer fibres in the fleece ... idea pinched from the US Army apparently. Winter weight and summer weight softshells are available, is my point

 

[Paul_B]

I've used the original vapour rise jacket from Rab as my main winter jacket. HH prowool in winter underneath and if really cold I had a haglofs fleece underneath it. That fleece was a good mid layer over a base layer and under a windproof or hardshell in the classic layering. But it had fine inner fibres that TBH was like Paramo parameta fabric or their fleeces. That meant it could be used equally as a warmer base layer that wicked very well indeed. Under the Rab VR it meant I could cope with the coldest and windiest the Lakes could offer me.

I've seen they've changed the vr and there seems they've made the warmer version but made the original thinner and lighter it seemed to me. I think they tried to make a summer and winter versions but IMHO the original was good enough for winter as it was. Actually it managed a wide temperature range greater than you'd expect the thickness would provide.

 

[Billy-o]

oops ... misunderstood

 

[Ed the Ted]

I used to love my Buffalo special 6 in scottish winter, though if its too cold and windy the wind goes through the side zips, and if its much warmer than 1c its too hot! IMO it is ideal for fluctuating temps between -2/3/4 and +1, with constant precipitation, snow sleet rain. this is the hell of all weathers, and the buffalo just worked.

I really like the look of the tec shirt, basically a thinner version, but it's £200 !!! I think the best thing is to have a variety of fleece thicknesses and wear them next to the skin under a decent windproof (with a good hood!). that way you have a pile and pertex effect but for multiple temp. ranges and at a more reasonable price.

 

[henchy3rd]

I’ll cut a long story short,
whilst walking up Mt Snowdon in a very humid rainy July, I decided to pull out my expensive outer wear, only to be soaked from sweat & rain within 15 mins,how uncomfortable was I?
My Icelandic friend pulled out a poncho & umbrella, I laughed at first, but soon realised how comfy & dry he was?
all he said was, what do you expect wrapping yourself up in a plastic bag

 

[Kilbith]

Patagonia made in the past something like Buffalo but the outer skin had an "EPIC" DWR.

Also you could find in the past microfiber coat with an hydrophobic liner inside. Some kind of microfiber are mechanically very water resistant (1000mm) and windproof. If you work hard under the rain you will be dry (most often).

I don't know why these products vanished, perharps because they were expensive and people prefer "sweaty rainproof hardshell" instead of "comfortable almost rainproof hardshell"?

 

[Paul_B]

New alternative to buffalo perhaps? A buffalo clone from alpkit.

Alpkit buffalo clone!

 

[Stew]

New alternative to buffalo perhaps? A buffalo clone from alpkit.

Alpkit buffalo clone!

Christmas is looming and that looks tempting! I've got a lot of faith in my alpkit gear and I've liked the idea of buffalo for some time but never taken the plunge.

 

[Tiley]

New alternative to buffalo perhaps? A buffalo clone from alpkit.

Alpkit buffalo clone!

I really didn't need to know about this... but thank you: it looks like a genuinely viable alternative to Buffalo!

 

[Duggie Bravo]

My Buffalo SP shirt an salopettes never got used last year, it wasn’t cold enough.
This year I can see it getting used to walk the dog first thing.


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