Advice needed on liability insurance

[Stringmaker]

I recently tried a speculative approach to a local campsite behind a pub near me to see if they might be interested in someone (me!) running the odd traditional living skills session for their guests.

I specifically mentioned fire lighting and very basic spoon carving.

Well, they are very interested as this fits perfectly with their life ethic and the way they run their campsite, so now I have to consider how to deliver it, but more importantly, what administrative hoops I need to jump through to cover myself. Basically, I have two options:

1. To do it for the love of working with people, and maybe the odd beer.

2. To do it on a more formal basis and to make a charge to cover my costs (things like buying some crook knives and bags of hay).

Which ever choice I go for, I am assuming that I would need some kind of liability insurance?

Just for clarity, this would be me visting their site, not anybody travelling to come to me.

I already have an enhanced CRB check and basic first aid certificate. Are CRB checks now "portable" or would I need to have another one for this specific site?

All and any advice gratefully received,

Thanks.

 

[stuey]

They would have to obtain a CRB check relating to you themselves. If you're volunteering they can obtain a CRB check for around 20 quid. The one you already hold is only valid for the organisation that requested it. A crazy system but there we go.

You will need public liability insurance irrespective of whether you are working for money or payment in kind or even nothing. The fact you want fires will mean you must make sure the insurer covers you for fire risks and be prepared to pay more for the privelige. The amount of cover for public liability varies depending on your preferences and more often than not the people you are running the activity for. We have been asked fo varying amounts over the years from "not bothered" right up to a heady 10 million!!


If you think anything you teach or say may come back to bite you then you may need to consider proffessional indemnity insurance. Its unlikely you would need it though. An unrelated example might be that you showed someone how to abseil, they went out and got it wrong, injured themselves and came after you claiming you had taught them incorrect techniques which resulted in their injury.

My public liability for sharps use and tools and equipment cover costs me around 170 quid a year. There are no age restrctions on the policy so it is as valid for working with kids as it is for working with adults. My better halfs insurance which inlcudes fire cover is around 220 quid and again has no age restrictions.

Dont forget your generic and site specific risk assessments which will be your fall back should anything go wrong and again you will need to abide by the HSE stuff even if you are only getting paid in kind. Your risk assessments need to show some means of separating booze and sharps use for starters.

It sounds like a great idea! Give me a shout if you need any other info or insurance company details etc.

Stu

 

[Stringmaker]

That's great advice, thanks a lot.

I have just spoken to one insurer to get the ball rolling and I'm about to provide them a detail write up of the proposed activities, tools and risks and will see what they come back with. I thought the CRB thing would still crop up but I didn't know that they had to request it; thanks again for the inside knowledge.

I will suggest to the business owners that we need to meet and discuss some of these things, especially the site specifc risk assessment.

I'm quite fired up(!) by this now; it will be doing something I love and hopefully entertaining and educating people along the way.

I'll definitely use you as a sounding board if I may; I'll keep you posted.

:You_Rock_

 

[Fat Rog]

Public liability insurance isn't all that expensive. Not sure about professional indemnity but wouldn't imagine it to be much more. I would contact your local chamber of commerce, they should be able to tell you what cover you need. Also, contact the CRB and explain what it is you want to do, you may find out that your existing certificate is enough. If you have to pay insurance or have any other overheads to meet then it only seems fair that you should charge for your services. Probably wont make you a millionaire, but there's nothing wrong with earning a few extra quid from your hobby IMO. Best of luck if you do decide to move forward with it

 

[stuey]

Have just checked my better halfs insurance. She uses a broker called Birnbeck Insurance Services in Weston Super Mare who use Catlin Insurance. About 190 quid a year not 220 like I thought. 5 mil cover with a £250 excess. Thats for sharps, ponds and water, fire, shelters/dens etc.
Your site specific RA will need to be updated each time you work at the site as the risks may change from visit to visit.
Shout if you need help with RA's.

I have no connection to Birnbeck just for the record.

 

[Stringmaker]

Thanks both.

I blame Robin Wood for this; if he hadn't posted the link to the "Hand Made Revolution" series I wouldn't have got so enthused about doing something in my own right as opposed to being part of another project.

Onwards!

 

[stuey]

Public liability insurance isn't all that expensive. Not sure about professional indemnity but wouldn't imagine it to be much more. I would contact your local chamber of commerce, they should be able to tell you what cover you need. Also, contact the CRB and explain what it is you want to do, you may find out that your existing certificate is enough. If you have to pay insurance or have any other overheads to meet then it only seems fair that you should charge for your services. Probably wont make you a millionaire, but there's nothing wrong with earning a few extra quid from your hobby IMO. Best of luck if you do decide to move forward with it

Under the current arangement, the CRB will not be valid for anyone else other than the organisation that requested it. If there is an allegation made both parites could be at risk. There is a move due to launch early 2013 to introduce a portable "1 check for all employers" system.

Proffessional indemnity can be quite a lot more depending on the industry, qualifications of the insured, associated turnover from the insured's activites, potential costs of a claim. Gping back to my unrelated example, an abseiling accident could cost a life. If your turnover was 50 quid a year the insurer would assume you are teaching it once a year, risk of accident low therefore premium cheap. If turnover was 50 thousand they will assume you are teaching a lot of people therefore the odds of an accident increase therefore premium is high.

+1 for speaking to your local commerce. They will be a font of knowledge and also advise on the best way forward in terms of tax, sole trader registration etc etc.

 

[Kepis]

Give these people a ring http://www.craftinsurance.co.uk/insurance-for-individual-sole-trader-partnership/

 

[stuey]

Give these people a ring http://www.craftinsurance.co.uk/insurance-for-individual-sole-trader-partnership/

Thats who I am insured with.... they are great for sharps use, tools eaquipment and products liability but they couldn't help me when I started asking about cover for fire use and shelter building though.
That was a while ago now and I've not asked since as all our fire and shelter stuff happens under the auspicies of my other half and her policy etc. Are they offering that now Kepis?

 

[FGYT]

CHeck the small print on the insurance to make sure you understand what you need for it to be valid ie your first aid is probably needed some require further stuff ( Its not far off that you will need to be a qualified instructor in whatever to be covered but we aren't quite there yet)

this also may require Risk assessments etc and HSE considerations which is basically paperwork

 

[Stringmaker]

I've just sent the detailed description of the activities (backed up with photos) to the insurers.

The girl I spoke to did say that fire lighting is a different issue but she wasn't in any way negative. I've done my bit in providing the information, now to wait and see what comes back. I'm also hoping to meet the business owners on site fairly soon where I can explain the CRB thing to them. I would expect that as camp site owners with juvenile guests they probably had to be checked themselves?

As to turnover, it would be minimal; I am thinking not-for-profit at the moment.

 

[stuey]

I would expect that as camp site owners with juvenile guests they probably had to be checked themselves?

As to turnover, it would be minimal; I am thinking not-for-profit at the moment.

Not necessarily. They may not take any responsibility for the youngsters, display and disclimer to that extent and most likely don't put themselves into one to one situations.

Not for profit (in the offical sense of a not for profit organisation) is a whole different ball game which I know very little about. It is a possibility and there certainly was (may still be) some generous pots of money around to help with set-up, equipment, websites and publicity, running costs etc. there is someone around this area running a similar enterprise under the guise of a not for profit organisation. Seems to manage to earn a fairly fat living out of "not for profit" but dont get me started!

If you struggle with the fire bit of your insurance try that Birnbeck company. My other half seems to be insured for everything under the sun bushcraft and environmental play based and seems to get it for a good premium.

 

[Stringmaker]

The start up costs would be insurance, some more crook knives, gloves and safety glasses (just in case of a request) plus the odd bag of dried hay. If I can cover those costs eventually then I would be happy. I'm sure that certain folk with good accountants do very well out of NFP but that's not my style.

I will certainly try Birnbeck as another insurer; in fact I might contact them anyway and see what they come back with.

 

[Gaudette]

Very interesting info. I' m sure it's very sound and proper advice and completely correct. I just can't help thinking how sad it is that someone wants to give back some knowledge which will enhance other people's lives and has to go through all this.


--------------------------------------------
"If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had some eggs"

 

[DaveWL]

Might also be worth trying the NFU mutual for the professional liability. They've always struck me as flexible.

Not the case with Hiscox who I hold my professional and public insurance with.

 

[Stringmaker]

Very interesting info. I' m sure it's very sound and proper advice and completely correct. I just can't help thinking how sad it is that someone wants to give back some knowledge which will enhance other people's lives and has to go through all this.


--------------------------------------------
"If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had some eggs"

I know, but that is the paranoid, litigous society we have allowed ourselves to create.

 

[stuey]

I agree it is sad. It is however a response to the increasingly litigious society in which we find ourselves. I would boldly say that all of us involved in "giving something back" do it for simply those reasons.... you certainly dont get rich from doing it My accountant marvels at the fact I make a loss year on year on my hobby business.... he doesnt get that I do it to see the look on peoples faces when they learn something new about themselves and what they can achieve with a bit of guidance.


EDIT: Ha! You beat me to it with the litigious bit Stringmaker

Very interesting info. I' m sure it's very sound and proper advice and completely correct. I just can't help thinking how sad it is that someone wants to give back some knowledge which will enhance other people's lives and has to go through all this.


--------------------------------------------
"If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had some eggs"

 

[stuey]

I'm sure that certain folk with good accountants do very well out of NFP but that's not my style.

I will certainly try Birnbeck as another insurer; in fact I might contact them anyway and see what they come back with.

Glad to hear it mate.. makes my blood boil when I see NFP owners cruising past in posh pick-ups!

That said, i know other NFP's that are true to their word and provide amazing experiences for kids and adults.

 

[stuey]

Might also be worth trying the NFU mutual for the professional liability. They've always struck me as flexible.

Not the case with Hiscox who I hold my professional and public insurance with.

Its a good 8 years since I held any kind of policy with the NFU and it was on my unimogs. They were good for that but pants for the specialist profff indemnity and public liability we needed at the time. Have they got it sussed now Dave?
I agree with Hiscox. They insured my professional indemnity for about 8 years steadily increasing the premium year on year despite my protestations. Last year i had enough and told them i was leaving.... suddenly they halved my premium for no change in cover! Absolute gits.

 

[Kepis]

Thats who I am insured with.... they are great for sharps use, tools eaquipment and products liability but they couldn't help me when I started asking about cover for fire use and shelter building though.
That was a while ago now and I've not asked since as all our fire and shelter stuff happens under the auspicies of my other half and her policy etc. Are they offering that now Kepis?

I spoke with Ian this morning, in his words "if you can make it with your hands and it's a craft, we cover it", they dont cover what he called "Mearsy stuff", so fire lighting and stuff like that is not covered, best bet is for people to call them and discuss what they want to do, just be totally honest with them and people will get an honest answer.