A wild camping association idea

[nettles150390]

So i had a thought while reading another post. So wild camping is in the main discouraged in the UK, then i started thinking is there a way to set up a "wild camping Association" so im not very good at this sorta thing but this is what i have so far.

The wild camping association.
Talks to landowners and gets permission for its members to wild camp on their land. and in return promises that its members will follow a strict code of practise, that basically all boils down to leave no trace and cause no damage. That it will keep a record of all members who choose to camp on that land and when they were there. and should any damages occur pay for said damages (through an insurence).

Provides its members with a code of practise to be followed, and terms of membership. provides a site with a list of land permissions and a information page on each site. provides the members with a form to say that they will be camping on "this" site on "this" date


The Land owners
Allow members of the Wild Camping Association permission to camp on their land so long as they follow the codes of practise and the terms of membership. should damages occur can claim insurence from the wild camping association.

The members

Pay a membership fee (pays for the insurence and website) recieve a membership card and a code of practise handbooks and a terms of membership handbook. Agree to follow the handbooks. if they wild camp on a site must inform the Wild camping association that they are camping on "this" site on "this" date to be covered by the wild camping association, and to understand that if they do not do this they will not be covered by the association. and agree that if they do not follow the codes of practise and terms of membership that their membership will be revoked.

What do you guys think? be honest please poke holes that you see it'll help me refine the plan.

 

[Toddy]

Have you read the previous threads on the topic ?

Have you taken on board that all land is owned by someone, or some authority, and legally permission is required to camp on that land in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Irish Republic too, since I suppose we're really discussing the British Isles as a whole, all 6,000+ of them)

Have you any concept of the difficulties that both folks who want to use the land, and the people who own (and can find themselves responsible for any accidents on their land) have in sussing this out ?

How are you going to ensure the conduct of your members so that it will satisfy public liability and indemnity ?

How are you going to deal with conflicts ? because there are those who will 'wild camp' and trash a site, who may have nothing to do with your organisation, but whose behaviour will tarnish all association.

How does an association fit in with the 'wild camp' ethos of most folks who just quietly get on with it ? Most of us do not join associations to be given permission to enjoy our chill out time.

Who will administer/organise this association ? who will profit from it ? or earn a wage from it ?

Sorry to sound so terribly negative, but you are a totally unknown person to folks here, and we have no known history of your own behaviour on sites or meets to get any awareness of you from.

Toddy

 

[nettles150390]

Have you read the previous threads on the topic ?

Have you taken on board that all land is owned by someone, or some authority, and legally permission is required to camp on that land in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Irish Republic too, since I suppose we're really discussing the British Isles as a whole, all 6,000+ of them)

Have you any concept of the difficulties that both folks who want to use the land, and the people who own (and can find themselves responsible for any accidents on their land) have in sussing this out ?

How are you going to ensure the conduct of your members so that it will satisfy public liability and indemnity ?

How are you going to deal with conflicts ? because there are those who will 'wild camp' and trash a site, who may have nothing to do with your organisation, but whose behaviour will tarnish all association.

How does an association fit in with the 'wild camp' ethos of most folks who just quietly get on with it ? Most of us do not join associations to be given permission to enjoy our chill out time.

Who will administer/organise this association ? who will profit from it ? or earn a wage from it ?

Sorry to sound so terribly negative, but you are a totally unknown person to folks here, and we have no known history of your own behaviour on sites or meets to get any awareness of you from.

Toddy

No its fine its all stuff i need to hear to make sure ive thought it out.

Sorry to sound so terribly negative, but you are a totally unknown person to folks here, and we have no known history of your own behaviour on sites or meets to get any awareness of you from.

Start with this one, its a new account i used to go by kahlenda on here and have been to a few meets for the people that do know me. not that i was terrible active before that lol.

Have you taken on board that all land is owned by someone, or some authority, and legally permission is required to camp on that land in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Irish Republic too, since I suppose we're really discussing the British Isles as a whole, all 6,000+ of them)

That would be the point of the association, to contact these land owners an authorities, to get permission for its members to camp there. obviously not all at once it would take time to build up to a large number of them but it could start out small and then grow slowly.

Have you any concept of the difficulties that both folks who want to use the land, and the people who own (and can find themselves responsible for any accidents on their land) have in sussing this out ?

Again the Association will be there to try and iron out these difficulties and make is easy for both parties, as for accidents (obviously it'll require talking to a lawyer and getting legal consultation) but neither then landowner nor the association will be responsible for any accidents that may occur that would be written into the terms of membership, something like "you accept responsibility for your own safety in using the land, ect." much like when you get a permission of a landowner for bushcraft/ hunting. so far its just an idea that popped into my head im still fleshing it out.

How are you going to ensure the conduct of your members so that it will satisfy public liability and indemnity ?

Again not very knowledgeable about this whole thing so i need to look more into it, but as a thought, all members will have a code of practise and a terms of membership to follow, if either of these are broken then they wont be covered by the association and there for liable to prosecution ect. as per the law. for example to use a site the member would need to let the association know that they are going to be on "this" site on "this" date, this could be achieved by a simple form on the website that automatically inserts the information into a database. if the member doesnt do this then they wont be fulfilling the terms of membership and wont be protected by the association, and if they were to do all this and then trash the site, they would have their membership revoked. and again probably have to talk to a lawyer an so on but maybe it would be possible to put a fine in place, like i said still more information to put together to flesh the idea out.

How are you going to deal with conflicts ? because there are those who will 'wild camp' and trash a site, who may have nothing to do with your organisation, but whose behaviour will tarnish all association.

Again if a member is camping there, under terms of membership, we should have a record of them being there, and the landowner can be made aware of that, maybe theyll take a walk around have a look see, or maybe even have people introduce themself to the land owner on arrival, again still fleshing the idea out but things like that can help to make it clear who's camping their with the association and who's just a bunch of local kids. you know if the records say there gunna be 2 members camping on the saturday night and the landowner can hear/ see a big group of people then chances are that its not gunna be the members. don't get me wrong this is deffinatly gunna be one of the hardest area's to figure out but if i can get the rest figured on im going to give this a really good try at figuring it out.

How does an association fit in with the 'wild camp' ethos of most folks who just quietly get on with it ? Most of us do not join associations to be given permission to enjoy our chill out time.

so if you have a permission of say a farmer to practise bushcraft in a woodland on his property, you wild camp there. it woud be sort of the same but instead of having to go round to all these land owners and get permission. the association will have done it for you all you need to do is fill out that simple for saying this campsite this date, and then off you go. and its not to set up camping field with toilets and so on its litrally just an agreement that "this list" of people have permission to use this area of land for wild camping weather that be a piece of woodland owned by a local authority or private owner, or a plantation so on so forth, whatever landowners will give permission for, could even make a form for members to put up surggestions of area's of land to ask permission for. and its not about being given permission to enjoy your chill out time, its joining an association that would allow you to camp in places that you could not otherwise legally camp in.

Who will administer/organise this association ? who will profit from it ? or earn a wage from it ?

Again this needs some serious fleshing out, what i have so far is, obviously myself and maybe hopefully have a few people that volunteer maybe talking to landowners to get permissions. run it as non profit only charge whats needed to run the association, if/ when it gets big enough to need people administering it full time, then it should be big enough to also earn other avenues of income than just membership fee's. and again it wouldnt really be there to make profit but to tick over.


Nettles

 

[Toddy]

Up front you cannot have two accounts.

I have asked Admin to sort that out.


Frankly, I think it's a logistical nightmare, and I know that those who have worked hard to gain the trust of landowners are very unlikely to be prepared to hand over details to any association.
At the end of the day, sites can only take so much use before they degrade. Commercial campsites are set up with specific water, sewerage and rubbish disposal systems for very good reasons. They also carry the insurances, etc., that cover them and their guests.

Sites in Scotland where wild camping is permitted are already having huge issues because of their use and exploitation. Every site is different too.

Best of luck with it, but I think it's going to be an uphill struggle.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Shewie]

I used to pay into a similar system for air rifle hunting over 20 years ago, having just got back into shooting I was sad to see it's now disappeared, it probably got so messed up in red tape that it became defunct. It worked quite well in truth, and this was in the days before the internet. I paid around £25 a year for membership and then we'd get a printed directory of landowners and their contact details, I basically rang them up at least 48 hours in advance and told them when and where I'd be going, sometimes there was a charge and other times you were doing somebody a favour.

Although the system worked well, I agree with Mary on the environmental and sanitation impact a bushcrafty equivalent might have. If a bunch of landowners wanted to get some basic facilities in place then it could work, but you'll notice the majority of meets take place at Scout camps or such like for these reasons.

 

[Tristar777]

If in the past people didn't "break the law" and trespass on private land we would never have brought about the founding of access of public footpaths. In the Victorian age, it was the perpetual breaking of the law that opened a legal requirement to have access to once closed land see such books as "Rambling the beginners hand book".
In the 1980s the use of illegal AM radios from the US gave us a legal system on FM to use. Most things that we now have Rights to have at one time been illegal but the doing of them despite the legal consequences and the chasing after a change of the law in legal ways has resulted in change.
While I agree Toddy there are lots of issues around what the OP has suggested, it is these dialogs that are taken to land owners and the law makers that start the seeds of change. Yes a lot of if and buts, compromise, demonstrations, direct action groups and pure defiance until the system changes.
That's part of our Rights or even responsibility to challenge the status quo and how Women got the vote and many other things that were changed in our country for the better.
Id say to the OP to explore further and see where it takes you. Speak to the Ramblers Association (which was formed to get access in the 1900s) and Camping Associations and see what is on their agendas too! Its not just Bushcraft that uses the countryside and its not just land owners that live in this country! Im with you!

 

[Beefy0978]

I may have missed the point here...

But surely paying for membership and insurance, and camping on land that the association has gained consent for, no doubt incurring a fee, either from the association or from the individual, and abiding by rules negotiated by the association and the land owner;

Is a long winded way of just camping?

Why not seek out a site that allows fires and tarps? They do exist already...

That said; if you were able to identify land in every county of England and Wales and pull off something not done before by getting land owners on board with allowing strangers access to their land, then I'm sure you'd get lots of members. But then so has the Caravan Club....

 

[Dannytsg]

Rather than being negative I applaud you for wanting to try and benefit the bushcarafters and wild camping enthusiasts. Have a look at this site http://www.nearlywildcamping.org/

This is a site similar to what you are suggesting, but they operate the sites not an association of sorts.

I know about these because I enquires about adding my own land to their registry for wild campers to use in Cornwall however I am yet to get round to finalising details.

If you want to put heads together feel free to drop me a line as I would be happy to help in anyway I can (web design, setting up a website etc)

There are also a lot of hurdles to overcome and it would definitely not be an easy task but if it was established and worked then you would help and benefit a lot of wild campers who just don't have the time, resources or access to land owners to approach.

 

[didicoy]

If in the past people didn't "break the law" and trespass on private land we would never have brought about the founding of access of public footpaths. In the Victorian age, it was the perpetual breaking of the law that opened a legal requirement to have access to once closed land see such books as "Rambling the beginners hand book".

Fortunately PRW commenced as a type of TAX evasion by land owners, during the tithe awards. Resulting in our public rights of way by default. Nothing to do with the Ramblers association, but who have contributed to the mapping of PRW since and also open access. The rest of your statement, "well" That's exactly the view the New AGE Travelers preached and look what good that did.

 

[British Red]

I

Yes a lot of if and buts, compromise, demonstrations, direct action groups and pure defiance until the system changes.

Presumably you approve of all the things and other law breaking when landowners do it too? Blocking footpaths, tearing out stiles, putting bulls in fields etc.?

After all once one side starts breaking the law and is told that its okay, then it must be okay for both sides.

 

[shack]

Rather than being negative I applaud you for wanting to try and benefit the bushcarafters and wild camping enthusiasts. Have a look at this site http://www.nearlywildcamping.org/

This is a site similar to what you are suggesting, but they operate the sites not an association of sorts.

I know about these because I enquires about adding my own land to their registry for wild campers to use in Cornwall however I am yet to get round to finalising details.

If you want to put heads together feel free to drop me a line as I would be happy to help in anyway I can (web design, setting up a website etc)

There are also a lot of hurdles to overcome and it would definitely not be an easy task but if it was established and worked then you would help and benefit a lot of wild campers who just don't have the time, resources or access to land owners to approach.

that's an interesting looking website, thanks for posting.

 

[Dannytsg]

You're welcome.

 

[boatman]

Presumably you approve of all the things and other law breaking when landowners do it too? Blocking footpaths, tearing out stiles, putting bulls in fields etc.?

After all once one side starts breaking the law and is told that its okay, then it must be okay for both sides.

Some do block footpaths and get away with it. A trick in Wiltshire was to dump broken bricks and concrete to make walking difficult and even dangerous. So by your logic Red wild camping on their land would be OK.

To be sensible, the actions you describe are offences for which they can be punished by law whereas simple trespass and even overnight sleeping are not, being civil matters.

 

[British Red]

My point is that both sides should obey the law. Civil offences are still offences.

 

[Imagedude]

This subject has provoked some debate on the climbing forums..

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=604363&v=1#x7944263

 

[boatman]

I think a reasonable compromise would be to follow the Spanish practice, if I remember a previous post correctly, in national forests tented camps discouraged but overnight bivouacs accepted.

Setting up up tents and hammocks with firepits etc such as we keep seeing in trip reports is camping but if you want to do the sort of microadventure thing with bivvy bag type kit or natural unmodified shelters then that is bivouacing.

 

[British Red]

A reasonable approach is to ask permission. If you are too lazy to find out who owns the land, then you aren't trying very hard.

 

[Filterhoose]

I'm not being flippant but if heading north...............http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/

Windy

 

[Stevie777]

Just a observation..Wild Camping IS allowed in the UK....We are allowed to Camp overnight (sometimes even longer) on the high street in the UK and around the globe for the latest Iphone, playstation etc and no-one will bat a eyelid. Well that would be my defence if i ever found myself up in a court of law for trying to get a kip in the sticks...

Thank God i live in Scotland.

 

[Wayland]

A reasonable approach is to ask permission. If you are too lazy to find out who owns the land, then you aren't trying very hard.

This might make things a little easier.