A question on historical sharpening.

[Hammock Hamster]

Hi All,

I’ve been thinking about trying a combination of minimalist/vaguely historical kit for my bushcraft just to try something different (a bit like the pioneer type challenges we have had in the past) which has led me to the subject of sharpening in the field.

I’m looking at some “beater” style options for knife and axe that I will want to keep sharp but not necessarily scandi shaving sharp to see if I can use these effectively in the field.

I expect most of us have various types of sharpening stones, systems and devices to keep our beloved tools keen of edge but I can’t seem to find much detail on historic ways of sharpening - a lot of places are saying a “suitable” abrasive stone or rock but not expanding much on that.

I’m wondering if any of our re-enactor types or those with an interest in history can offer any thoughts, ideally I would like to eventually identify suitable stones as needed but for now I’m happy to find a natural stone that will do the job to keep as part of my kit.

Cheers in advance, Hamster


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Janne]

Shaped fine grained sandstone has been used for centuries.

Also a flat stick dipped in fat then fine sand.

 

[Dave Budd]

Natural stone hones are still available. The type and coarseness being chosen for how fine a finish is required; from coarse sandstone grinding wheels, through to slate hones for razers and chisels. The sand on a board thing is really just a rough agricultural thing for tools like a scythe or sickle.

I've a book on natural stone hones somewhere. I don't recall which types of rock or where the quarries are for uk based stones. The most well known in modern times would be the american washita and arkansaw(sp?) Stones and the belgium coticule; all are still available from good tool shops like dictum and workshop heaven

You can try any abrasive rocks that you may find. Some work better than others for any given level of roughness

 

[oldtimer]

The actor Bernard Miles used to do a humorous monologue on the radio when I was a child. In character as a farm hand in the days of hand sytheing , he described in detail the tomb of a crusader knight in the village church with the punchline, "he's the finest bit of sharpening stone in all 'ertfordshire."

 

[Macaroon]

Granite and other stone doorsteps all had odd-shaped wear along them when I was a boy from where folk just went outside and used them to sharpen tools, kitchen knives, scissors etc.

The alternative was to pay a tanner to the travelling men to sharpen it all, but four or five rounds of that would take all the steel and then they'd offer to sell you replacements

 

[Robson Valley]

Your go-to reference has to be Tombear of this parish.
Seems over here, all knowledge of natural stones has been very quickly abandoned.

Shut your eyes and use your fingertips to compare the texture of stones, any sorts of stones, to various grit grades of sand papers.
The finer the texture, the finer the crystalline grit particle size for more uniform edge

As you can expect, there's quite a lot of variety to pick from at my place.
Soft rock was crushed by glaciation. Anything lying about is good for sharpening as it was too hard to crush.
Believe me, I'm still looking for those elusive "perfect rocks" = long ovals.

Three things are still puzzles:
1. The uniformity (homogeneous?) of the stone with some coarse grains exposed.
2. Trying to hold a consistent bevel angle over a curved stone surface.
3. Size: the little ones are awkward to hold and the big ones (12") are too unwieldy for small tool edges.

I think that 's why people were so quick to work towards stones with flat surfaces for more consistent control.
I have scraps from a diamond stone cutting operation, no better than raw for their rippled cut surface (diamond rope saw).
I went to quite some trouble last summer with sand and water to try to lap a couple of slabs. Another month maybe.

The alternatives of course are the artificial stones with controlled grit size and adhesion of binder and so on.

Somewhere, I have a link to a 30 minute digitized movie of Mungo Martin (Kwakwakawa'Waka).
Near the beginning, he sharpens his best crooked knife with a rock and a bucket of water.
Then carved and sets a kerf-bend box.
I need a rock like that.

 

[Hammock Hamster]

Thanks guys, looks like some trial and error is on the cards.

For my “kit” I will probably look at flattening down a suitably sized stone on another flat rock or sand paper on a flat surface.
Would I be right in thinking a round stone would do in a pinch to sharpen a knife or axe edge but prolonged used will concave the edge?
That sounds sensible but not sure if I am just used to the lovely ruler straight edges of modern stones?!?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robson Valley]

"Research is what you do when you realize that you cannot go on doing things today as you did them yesterday." -Anon
Old knives and old axe heads: what do you see for shape & contour? I have a couple of "rainbow" kitchen knives!
The quest for the perfect river stone.

 

[Janne]

Thanks guys, looks like some trial and error is on the cards.

For my “kit” I will probably look at flattening down a suitably sized stone on another flat rock or sand paper on a flat surface.
Would I be right in thinking a round stone would do in a pinch to sharpen a knife or axe edge but prolonged used will concave the edge?
That sounds sensible but not sure if I am just used to the lovely ruler straight edges of modern stones?!?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes you can use a rounded stone. If the stone is palm sized and flattish you will get a so called hollow grind eventually. After many sharpenings!

Personally I never carry a sharpening stone. If I need to improve the edge, I find something suitable. Part of bushcrafting imho.

We all are used to superb steels, superb edges.
Some people even polish the edges. Not sure why though. Looks?

An edge cuts best if it is microscopically ‘large toothed’.

 

[Hammock Hamster]

Yes you can use a rounded stone. If the stone is palm sized and flattish you will get a so called hollow grind eventually. After many sharpenings!

Personally I never carry a sharpening stone. If I need to improve the edge, I find something suitable. Part of bushcrafting imho.

We all are used to superb steels, superb edges.
Some people even polish the edges. Not sure why though. Looks?

An edge cuts best if it is microscopically ‘large toothed’.

That’s pretty much what I had in mind, I’m going to pick a knife (I may even pick up something new, you know for research purposes ) and see if I can keep it sharp enough for all my camp and bushcraft tasks with just found stones.

I’ve always fancied a big Bowie that can do both the cutting and chopping tasks that in theory helps minimise my kit!

I know what you mean about the microscopically rough edge, I often find some knives cut better after say a medium stone than after it’s been refined further with a fine one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robson Valley]

I found it! At about 4:30, you see Mungo Martin sharpen his carving tools with rocks.
He carves a watertight, kerf-bent box from western red cedar.

 

[Hammock Hamster]

I found it! At about 4:30, you see Mungo Martin sharpen his carving tools with rocks.
He carves a watertight, kerf-bent box from western red cedar.

Cheers Robson, a very interesting watch! At first I thought that sharpening stone had been lapped on the top but looking again I think it may actually have just been wear.

The whole concept of the bent/steamed box was really intriguing, the dowels holding the corners were ingenious and seeing how he used the mocotaughan on the lid was a real eye opener.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hammock Hamster]

I happen to have a day off tomorrow and, call it cheating, I also have a small selection of various river stones dotted round the garden.
I think some test sharpening on my old beaters and a test run of lapping may be on the cards.
I will post up some of the results tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robson Valley]

Well, pick out the smoothest, finest-grained rock of the lot.
We have few to choose from here (but a lot more 9,000' rocks)

Given the blade shapes of his knives, he needed long, slim, oval stones.

The mocotaugan knife is east coast and very differently used for mostly birch work.
It's a single handed draw knife for pack frames, snowshoe frames and canoe parts.
I've built one up from a Sheffield blade of the original Hudson's Bay Company design.
Some people hope to use it for "wood carving" but there are many more and far better choices.

Carvers in the Pacific Northwest use crooked knives, commonly both edges beveled.
I use more than a dozen of them, very comfortable.

http://kestreltool.com/index.html

I hope this link comes up so you can see the variety of curvatures.
You can make these with farrier's hoof trimming knives, too.
Also, I use the elbow adze and the D adze for carving.

I'm going to bet that MM is using a knife with a 'J' shape that he turns over to scribe the joints.
I have drawings for a dozen different designs for the kerf joints. I can cut 3 or 4 of them.
Many of those boxes were sewn shut with spruce roots.
Waterproof enough to use red hot stones in water for cooking.

I want to carve a box and sharpen my knives with rocks.
The small rivers should be dropping in a week or two, a lot of the high snow melt is done again for another spring.
I can get into the edges of the very fast creeks and search (again) for those 'perfect' stones.

 

[Janne]

Might be just wishful thinking and feeling, but I have found that a normal leather belt ( that holds up your trousers) does give a nice edge, once you have ‘stoned’ it first.

No polishing compound on it. I do not know if the leather does anything, but it feels like it does!

Not natural stones, but the bottom ring on porcellain cups and saucers is good. Also glass bottles. If you come across a derelict car, the edge of the side glass windows is fantastic!

 

[Janne]

I would not take a Bowie knife. To heavy and cumbersone.

Something with a 4 inch blade, max 5 inch.

Get a Mora to practice using stones on, or something old.

 

[petrochemicals]

Yes you can use a rounded stone. If the stone is palm sized and flattish you will get a so called hollow grind eventually. After many sharpenings!

Personally I never carry a sharpening stone. If I need to improve the edge, I find something suitable. Part of bushcrafting imho.

We all are used to superb steels, superb edges.
Some people even polish the edges. Not sure why though. Looks?

An edge cuts best if it is microscopically ‘large toothed’.

I know serrations are good, but like all serations they easily fail. I use a razor stone to polish the edge on fine knives, an average aluoxide on tools, but cutting into it for the ending to get rid of burrs etc. I never understood the practice of stropping unless you want an edge that is infinatley decreacing in angle like a razor. The cut throat i have played with, whilst very sharp, is very weak.

 

[Janne]

As I said, I do not know if stropping on clean leather does anything more than removing loose debris.
Logically it should only fo that, as leather is much more soft than hardened steel.

The knife feels sharper, but is possibly just wishful thinking!

The Serrata project - large serrations on edge?

 

[Robson Valley]

Honestly, you guys have to look at Leonard Lee's Scanning Electron Microscope pictures of sharpened and honed steel edges.
Not much guesswork when you can see what steel edges look like. They look like crap. Soft and plastic.
a) Thanks to the National Research Council of Canada for the SEM work.
b) Leonard Lee is the grand old man of Lee Valley.

The honing compound mix of CrOx (.5 micron) and AlOx (0.25 micron) on a HARD surface (leather is a myth)
is all you need, beyond 1,500 grit which is about 5 micron or less.

These revelations changes my freehand sharpening technique very much. 10,000 grit is a waste of money.
The facts are in plain sight.
= = =
Now, Mungo Martin, Henry Hunt, Charles Edenshaw and a bunch of other top native carvers in the Pacific Northwest
are getting carving-sharp edges on crude steel knives with river stones. Betcha those adze blades are pieces of truck leaf spring.
They created absolute masterpieces from teaspoons to totem poles. We ought to be able to match that.

 

[Hammock Hamster]

As promised I spent some time experimenting with different stones today in a sort of quasi experimental archeology.

No idea what they are except the slate though I think one may be granite and another hard sandstone - answers on a postcard please.

So I decided to try a bit of lapping with some sandpaper and diamond stones on lieu of having a flat rock to try and get a better sharpening surface.

I won’t lie, it was bl**dy hard graft but simplicity itself just working the stones back and forth.
I realised pretty early that the stones need to be wet which makes the lapping much easier and helps create a slurry (a bit like Japanese water stones) that I think helped the process.

All in all I’m pretty pleased with the results and trails on a few blades are encouraging, the flattened sides were pretty small due to my poor choice of stones but it’s a learning experience for me.

Next step is to find some flatter, wider and more even stones (long flat ovals feel like a winner).

Anyway hope you liked the pics.

Hamster


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk