10,000 B.C. Reality Show

Toddy

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……on another point; there is good provenance for geas and the like; proscribed animals, cultural mores that transcend the need for food. Some of the 'celts' did not eat fish; in the UK hunting the hare was often considered not on, though others did, totem animals, dirty animals…the list is surprisingly full.
We have no reason to believe that those customs/superstitions/taboos do not have long provenance too. We just don't know. We do have evidence for the animals that were hunted though, and there are some surprising omissions.
It's not all cut and dried, is what I'm trying to say.

Boatman's right about the driven animal leaps too; we do have good evidence for those, and among those evidences are sites where it's quite obvious that the beasts that jumped were not all butchered, as only some are disarticulated and not left in situ.

M
 

Tengu

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Yes, I keep on telling my educated but primitive idolising friend about this; pretty shameful wasting folks, I think...And as for the Potlatch...would we do something ridiculous like that today?

Also this idea that they perforned some ceremony over the animal...well, some didnt (The Ona in `The utter most part of the earth` did not.) and some did. (All those interesting Siberian cerimonies over the bear...but bears are big and scary, and the rites were not to apologise but to appease, and convince the bear that someone else was to blame.)
 

Robson Valley

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Potlach was never a weekly ceremony. A display of obscene wealth done by the obscenely wealthy.
People who live in an extraordinarily wealthy environment on the Pacific coast. Bison were never a part of their world.

I have a friend who works in the closed world of top-end landscaping. One hill-side job was to rebuild and raise the swimming pool
to the level of the back of the house. They had to first move an argillite stone carving, an ornament on the pool deck.
Insured value: $1.5M Wealthy is as wealthy does!

Many buffalo jumps certainly did exist and they have not been hard to find. "Head-Smashed-In" in Alberta is probably the most celebrated.
The village of Waneskewin, just north of Saskatoon, Sask was occupied for more than 4,000 years. Must have been a good place to live.
Had its own buffalo jump.
The indicators are the lines of stone cairns stretching across the landscape. As you can imagine, many of those have been destroyed
over the past century as the land was overwhelmed by intensive agriculture.

East of the Rockies, on the plains, bison were of crucial importance. I had the chance to work in a midden, standing what was estimated to be 20-30' vertical feet
of crushed bison bone, not a piece bigger than a postage stamp. Lots of middens near the Pacific coast, apparently = the window on day-to-day living
like any garbage tip/dump anywhere. Never enough time or money to investigate.
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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……and all that busy life, and things didn't move on until society had to change because of the encroachment of newcomers.

Farming feeds far more people than ever hunting did..and from farming comes developments that eventually lead us to the present where I can speak to my son on the other side of the world as though he were standing next to me :) where I can have heat and light at the flick of a switch, and we have every expectation that our babies will live, that we won't die of a hundred different diseases that are now routinely dealt with as minor inconveniences…and the list goes on.

I like being capable, I like knowing how, and all of that tells me that a mishmash group of strangers who are not well versed in living a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, aren't going to succeed.
Society, even if it's only a society of a dozen folks, needs an accepted, by everyone involved, behavioural model that fits the lifestyle and the requirements of the group in the environment that they find themselves.
Individualism, though much vaunted nowadays, causes friction and disputes, and even though people talk beforehand about how to balance matters, when everyone's stressed and hungry and there are no societal norms to fall back on, and everyone thinks they're right, and no one's really doing the work, things go like Lord of the Flies. The army does it by enforcing rigid discipline long enough that people react in expected ways; schools used to teach that way too, society in general doesn't work that way any longer.
Not in the west anyway.

I like being out and about, being busy & creative, foraging, etc., but that tv programme sounds like my idea of hell.
Real Mesolithic peoples knew their land, the seasons, the abilities and behaviour of everyone in their group/family/tribe/extended society. From the sounds of it this lot hadn't a clue.
Just another made for tv very unreal reality programme.

While I mind; vegetarianism is a worldwide choice; it's been known of for thousands of years, and folks have happily thrived on it for that long. It might not suit everyone, but given resources enough to gather nuts, seeds and roots for over winter, there's no reason that folks could not have done it in the mesolithic. Hunting doesn't always provide; indeed anthropologists report that it's women and children who provide most food simply by foraging and gathering, and many now claim that the advent of farming started when women moved useful plants nearer to areas where they foraged, and in effect created gardens.

I'm not the only one who watched with real awe and admiration as the fellows in Africa walked right up to and stole meat from a pride of lions though; makes you wonder just how long people have found the gumption to do stuff like that…..and what was the name of the man who first 'knew' he could do that ? :)
Those people, now they'd survive the mesolithic :D

M
 

boatman

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Early man might well have fed partly by driving off a predator from its prey. although hunters in their own right hyenas are pretty good at this. Working as a group seems to be the key and I am sure you are right Toddy that this would be the key to success in a proper Mesolithic living experiment.

One of the "failures" of the Living in the Past TV series was a vegetarian family although I think it was a prolapsing bowel that made them decide to leave. One problem was that foraging. apart from ferreting for rabbits and abortive fishing, didn't figure in the programme and their dairy foods were in short supply. Interesting that it was probably easier to be a vegetarian in the Mesolithic than in the Iron Age.
 

Jared

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Early man might well have fed partly by driving off a predator from its prey. although hunters in their own right hyenas are pretty good at this. Working as a group seems to be the key and I am sure you are right Toddy that this would be the key to success in a proper Mesolithic living experiment.

One of the "failures" of the Living in the Past TV series was a vegetarian family although I think it was a prolapsing bowel that made them decide to leave. One problem was that foraging. apart from ferreting for rabbits and abortive fishing, didn't figure in the programme and their dairy foods were in short supply. Interesting that it was probably easier to be a vegetarian in the Mesolithic than in the Iron Age.


Reminds me of the video clip of 3 Maasai taking a limb from a lion pack kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBpu4DAvwI8
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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That was the clip I minded :D


Capable, confident, and I have no idea how they learned to do it :yikes: but that's admirable gumption in action :D :notworthy

M
 

Robson Valley

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Nov 24, 2014
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The abject failure of the cast underscores the great knowledge base needed to prosper in Meso(?)lithic times.
This in itself suggests that a complex language was essential.

I'm in the middle of testing my very first bowdrill fire starting kit.
Mentoring has been a great help. Hindsight is showing me just how sophisticated
the kit needs to be for reliable performance. As a proof of concept, I can make a coal
using my electric drill to spin the rod (more slowly than I expected). By hand with the bow,
lots of smoke, no fire yet!


Lots of smoke
 

Jared

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That was the clip I minded :D


Capable, confident, and I have no idea how they learned to do it :yikes: but that's admirable gumption in action :D :notworthy

M

Ooops, no idea how I missed your reference to it :)
 

Macaroon

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Jan 5, 2013
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That was the clip I minded :D


Capable, confident, and I have no idea how they learned to do it :yikes: but that's admirable gumption in action :D :notworthy

M

I lived and worked in East Africa for a couple of years, most of it on the Masai Mara, and had the great good fortune to spend a fair bit of time with the Masai. They are a race apart without any doubt; they are so in tune with things we lost touch with millenia ago. They have what appears to westerners to be a magical affinity with the natural environment that surrounds them and their bravery knows almost no bounds. They mostly fail to comprehend why any human being would want to live without that contact, even given that the choice is available.......Evolution, I guess.
 

Stevie777

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Jun 28, 2014
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More city slickers playing a game for our entertainment. The rise and popularity of these type of programs tells us everything we need to know about society. Everyone is screaming to get away from the mundane lives they live, but they will only do it if they have a safety net to fall back onto.

We could all make the ultimate survival program tomorrow, but we wouldn't be allowed to see it thru because not many would make it out alive. And i doubt many would make it past the first few days without outside help.
But it's not about survival, these shows are what they are..Entertainment with entertaining characters. we all know the format even before it begins.

I'll give this one a miss. Bring back the Barefoot Bushman.
 

Old Bones

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Oct 14, 2009
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Potlach was never a weekly ceremony. A display of obscene wealth done by the obscenely wealthy.
People who live in an extraordinarily wealthy environment on the Pacific coast. Bison were never a part of their world.

True, and remember that those tribes had a wide range of food sources - catching fish, gathering, etc. They lived in longhouses, and had the chance to build up reserves that could be used in such ceremonies. Its interesting to look also at sites like Ozette, which again use fur seals as a primary source of meat, plus berrys from the forest. You could see Potlach in much the same way as any other aristocrat showing off their wealth, or perhaps in terms of Veblen's conspicous consumption.

The tribes of the plains, where the bison was a central part of the diet, and of their lives, were more likely to be nomadic hunter gatherers, and as such, could not afford to be wasteful. Kill sites were carefully planned, bison were gradually herded into compounds (often called Buffalo pounds), and then funnelled to the kill site. At the foot of the cliff, the whole tribe processed the kills. The animal would be butchered, meat extracted and dried or smoked, pemmican made, etc. The hide would be used, as would the bones, sinews, etc. Even the hooves were used. And of course any surplus could be used for trade.

The idea that they would casually 'waste' animals is illogical, after so much effort. In fact native peoples set fires to increase the amount of grazing available, and would possibly control the number of bison. Stampeding is an inexact science, but it was never done casually.

There is some evidence for animals left unbutchered, or at least only semi butchered, such as at Olsen-Chubbuck, but these are the very bottom of the pile - the rest of the animals were very efficently processed.

Archaeologists, anthropologists and ethnographers despair of the idea of the 'beautiful savage', and the idea of a natural native paradise. Its not reflected in the evidence. However, even more annoying is the backlash, of the 'they were wasteful and stupid' type. Thats certainly not shown by the evidence.

In reality, prehistoric societies which relied on hunter gathering (and of course even agricultural societies still undertook these activities) lived within their particular environmental niche. Exploit it too much, and you die. The bison you uselessly kill one month cannot be eaten the next. Likewise, you must use all the resources you reasonably can, for if you fail to, then you might not survive the fallow months. And if you can improve your chances of catching game by burning off forest to create more grassland, or damming a stream to create a weir for fishing, then you will do it. Its a pragmatic stratergy for survival, and an extremely intelligent one.

As for the programme - its on Channel 5. Its on Channel 5. So the chances are that its rubbish. By the looks of the trailer, its basically Big Brother in the wild. So we have stupid people trying to survive, and failing. Of course they could have actual experts (which of course the Mesolithic peoples would have been - hence their survival), but that wouldn't be fun. And this is Channel 5, where watching stupid people generally ranks above an interesting and informative programme. Although I must admit I do like CSI.
 

Robson Valley

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Nice post, Old Bones. For one so distant you get top marks. I was raised in the middle of it.
My ancestors homesteaded near Pile o' Bones in 1884. Wonder how the town got that name?
Buffalo pounds in groves of trees in the Aspen Parkland was a very efficient means of sustained yield.
What with the grass fires, there were few groves of trees available so the limited choice worked to their advantage.

Even just on the other side of my village, the bison commonly take shelter in the forested part of the pasture
in summer heat and winter storms. Turn that shelter into a trap!

Many Plains Indian groups had very permanent villages, such as the Pueblo and the Navaho.
Much further north, Waneskewin was such a great sheltered location, they used it for 4,000 years.
The Haida moved from summer to winter villages, even taking their house boards with them.
Other than autumn salmon runs, there's very little reason to abandon yoour coastal village for anywhere else.

One significant change occurred after the establishment of the fur trade by the Hudson's Bay Company and the Northwest Company.
For some reason(s), the great herds of bison in western Canada gradually shifted westward, to the Wainwright district for example.
I don't know if it has ever been established why that happened.
Last Mountain House, the trading post, on the east side of Last Mountain Lake was abandoned.
 

boatman

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I don't recalling them stupid just that there was a natural wastage from killing methods. The mention of the herding of the Bison does rather suggest that some at least were domesticated in the same sense that the reindeer of the Sami are domesticated. Changes in or reduction of"herding" could have led to the animals moving as queried.

These two women could manage the challenge, which they have done already.
https://www.schumachercollege.org.u...story-of-our-stone-age-camp-in-the-wilderness
 

Robson Valley

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If there ever was an attempt at domestication, there seems to be little evidence in support.
Watching them, they have a well-earned reputation for unpleasantness. Genuinely murderous critters.
Even grizzly bears are more predictable. By the 18th century, the populations still stood
in the millions.

The strategy was to find a bison herd, gently, gently push the bison in the direction of the jump. Ever so slowly.
The rock cairns hid the drivers until they were in positions to participate in the drive.
The final objective was to trigger a stampede from which there was no turning back.
Anatomically, bison are built for an all-day high cruising speed, unlike cattle. The trachea of a 2-yr old is nearly
3" in diameter (and that one was mighty fine eating, too.)
B1 breaks a leg. B2 falls on B1 and gets gored which in turn cripples B3, crashing headlong into those below. Spears dispatched the lot.
Possibly beyond the capacity of the village to process, I'll bet the natives worked with the efficiency of an abbatoir.

Even if you don't see them, ranch bison pastures are very easy to identify. 8' fencing of very heavy page wire on 8" - 10" posts.
I have bison backstrap fat, lots of meat, even dried berries. Might get pemmican made, yet.
 

crosslandkelly

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Channel 5 Monday the 2nd at 22.00. I'm not hopeful.

[video=youtube;UNX5qOU9JK8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&v=UNX5qOU9JK8&x-yt-ts=1422579428[/video]
 

Juggernaut

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I'll still watch it, may give me something better to do than play COD and surf YouTube on Monday night, it's entertainment not a fly on the wall documentary :0)

As a premise for something a lot more serious, it has good foundations, however the programme everyone on this forum would want to see (me included) simply wouldn't get the funding to make it happen.... Which is a pity.

Take it for what it's going to be though, a chance to see what would happen if you threw 20 ppl back in time a few thousand years lol and a chance for you to imagine what you would do, given You're experiences, compared to these people.
 

bambodoggy

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I'm well up for watching it....it'll be historically incorrect, full of modern ethos to old issues etc and basically a big cluster **** but it's gotta be more entertaining than East Enders or Coronation Street lol :)
As people have said below, it's not going to be the sort of show most of us would like to see but it's still going to be better than 99% of the other rubbish on tv :)

As a side point to the "wasteful" debate going on in this thread......it's not just humans that can be wasteful in times of plenty....I believe Bears and wolves eat only the row from salmon during the annual run, leaving the rest to rot where it lays.....I think Polar Bears do this with only eating the best bit of seals when there are plenty about, so us humans aren't the only ones.
Also, there were many different people with many different ideas about back then, just as there is today, some would have been wasteful and other wouldn't, saying all people back then were wasteful or were very caring and careful is as daft as saying all people today drop litter in the streets....there is litter in the street from some but not from me and I suspect not from you lot either ;)

Cheers,

Bam. :)
 
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