Titanium Hatchet?

[C_Claycomb]

I am the founder of Wrango Tools. I never suggested Mecha was involved, he's just our resident expert in titanium, which makes his credibility even stronger as an independent voice.

Thank you. Understood you now. You meant that Mecha is the resident expert on Bladeforum.
Easy to misunderstand you though, because saying that someone is “our resident expert” implies an association. Since you were not here representing or on behalf of Bladeforum it was reasonable to think you meant he was working with your company.

thanks and all the best

Chris

 

[TLM]

usually harder because you're naturally swinging faster with more control... Not to mention titanium transfers energy better than steel).

Mass is mass, Ti does not swing any faster than equal mass steel. Also the claim about energy transfer is such that it should be followed by something much more substantial. (The impolite way of saying is that it is BS with very high propability.)

I am also sceptical about claims of Rc not being usable for Ti, Rc is a somewhat complicated composite of various yield strengths. Ti has plastic deformation in both phases though in very different way. Cementite in steels does deform plastically but only under specific conditons.

In engineering I have very few opinions if facts exist.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Mass is mass, Ti does not swing any faster than equal mass steel. Also the claim about energy transfer is such that it should be followed by something much more substantial. (The impolite way of saying is that it is BS with very high propability.)

I was also thinking about questioning the energy transfer statement. But decided it was too minor to fuss about. It did occur to me that it might be possible to accelerate a lighter axe to higher speed within the limits of arm power and swing length. Higher speed leading to more energy in the head. If a head transfers all its energy too quickly it would not penetrate.

 

[TLM]

I thought about that too but my own experience has been that speed does not compensate for mass generally. I have a light weight Roselli hatchet with slightly personal geometry and that splits ok, actually quite well, at the small end but suffers considerably when bigger blocks come out.

 

[Broch]

We're getting into impact mechanics now - and then we have to take into account material elasticity and deceleration rates; all great stuff.

 

[Toddy]

Am I the only one who's suddenly understanding why a too light hatchet could 'bounce' off the kindling at times ?

 

[Broch]

Nope, it's all in the mechanics - even 'O' Level physics covers the principles.

 

[Pattree]

Once you get into the physics there are so many factors. A 400nm edge or a 300nm edge. The fictional coefficient of tool surface and substrate (why it was worth the agonisingly long job of smoothing a flint axe) etc. etc.

Has anyone used one?
Does it work on the jobs for which you bought it?
Do you enjoy owning it?

 

[TeeDee]

Nope, it's all in the mechanics - even 'O' Level physics covers the principles.

What's this 'O' level thing you speak of ?

 

[slowworm]

I've got a small, light, old Kent pattern axe I picked up for pennies. I tend to use it quite a bit for trimming sticks, splitting small kindling and delicate work. I wouldn't mind trying a titanium axe to see what it's like in actual use as I don't often need all the weight of a big axe.

Looking at it you could always tether a weight to the back if you needed extra weight #canofworms

 

[TLM]

Yup fun stuff impact mechanics, it tends to run around linear or angular momentum, which is not energy. Linear momentum is quite simply the product of mass and velocity, m*v , which fairly fast shows that it is linear to both variables.

That, I think is the important thing in this case.

 

[Broch]

Exactly - you can compensate for lower mass by using the same force to accelerate the axe faster, but the force that ends up on the workpiece is still dependant on the mass and the rate of deceleration and therefor the starting velocity. As they're linear components, I'd rather use a slower, more controlled, action - but that's just a personal preference I guess

 

[C_Claycomb]

I was curious, and found that the Wrangotool website ships only within the US. The only UK distributor for their tools I could find sold their hammers but not the axes. That left just Amazon US, which priced it around £145 including the shipping and duty. That is GB SFA price point.

 

[Tengu]

Id like to see someone use it. see how they get on.

Its certainly ingenious.

 

[Longstrider]

This raises questions in my mind. Many of their claims sound like the sort of bunkum pseudo science that automatically triggers my BS Alarm. They may be making a decent product but such claims, by their very nature make the whole enterprise seem somewhat 'iffy'.

The fact that most axe usage relies on the momentum of the tool to do the work (which is why we use heavier axes for bigger jobs), and that momentum is a result of weight and speed

'Titanium is Stronger than Steel' .... No it is not. Some titanium is stronger than some steel. I very much doubt that this titanium is stronger than the steels used in high quality axes that are in the same price-bracket.

Does not carrying 2 handles (as supplied) negate the lighter weight of the head in comparison to a similarly sized steel axe ?

'Triple Honed' ?? This is surely a non-sensical statement. Does this infer an edge that has 3 bevels, or that it takes 3 goes to get it sharp ? I have only ever needed to hone an axe once to sharpen it.

'Precision Factory Sharpened'. Have the makers ever touched the edge of a factory fresh Gransfors Bruks or a Wetterlings ?

'Includes Protective Sheath' ... What, like 99% of all axes available and all of the better quality ones ? Would you not expect a maker of such tools to know that correct term in an axe mask ?

'Replaceable Handle' ... Pretty much every tomahawk I have ever seen has had an easily replaceable handle, just like the titanium axe, but any wooden axe handle (helve ) can be removed and replaced. Perhaps not easily 'in the field', but of course it can be done, as I have done so many many times.

At $145 a piece, who fancies this over a quality steel axe that you already know you can trust to do what it needs to do ?

To the best of my knowledge, Gransfors Bruks, Wetterlings, Hultafors or any of the other quality axe manufacturers haven't had to put a warning like this on their product ...
Warning: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. For more information visit www.P65Warnings.ca.gov

Apart from that I think they're a wonderful idea ! Now, where is my rubber saw and my glass hammer ?

 

[Nice65]

This raises questions in my mind. Many of their claims sound like the sort of bunkum pseudo science that automatically triggers my BS Alarm. They may be making a decent product but such claims, by their very nature make the whole enterprise seem somewhat 'iffy'.

The fact that most axe usage relies on the momentum of the tool to do the work (which is why we use heavier axes for bigger jobs), and that momentum is a result of weight and speed

'Titanium is Stronger than Steel' .... No it is not. Some titanium is stronger than some steel. I very much doubt that this titanium is stronger than the steels used in high quality axes that are in the same price-bracket.

Does not carrying 2 handles (as supplied) negate the lighter weight of the head in comparison to a similarly sized steel axe ?

'Triple Honed' ?? This is surely a non-sensical statement. Does this infer an edge that has 3 bevels, or that it takes 3 goes to get it sharp ? I have only ever needed to hone an axe once to sharpen it.

'Precision Factory Sharpened'. Have the makers ever touched the edge of a factory fresh Gransfors Bruks or a Wetterlings ?

'Includes Protective Sheath' ... What, like 99% of all axes available and all of the better quality ones ? Would you not expect a maker of such tools to know that correct term in an axe mask ?

'Replaceable Handle' ... Pretty much every tomahawk I have ever seen has had an easily replaceable handle, just like the titanium axe, but any wooden axe handle (helve ) can be removed and replaced. Perhaps not easily 'in the field', but of course it can be done, as I have done so many many times.

At $145 a piece, who fancies this over a quality steel axe that you already know you can trust to do what it needs to do ?

To the best of my knowledge, Gransfors Bruks, Wetterlings, Hultafors or any of the other quality axe manufacturers haven't had to put a warning like this on their product ...
Warning: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. For more information visit www.P65Warnings.ca.gov

Apart from that I think they're a wonderful idea ! Now, where is my rubber saw and my glass hammer ?

Nicely attended Ian, best post on here in ages. You forgot to mention that aluminium will also make a totally useless axe, but it'll be a lot cheaper

 

[slowworm]

To the best of my knowledge, Gransfors Bruks, Wetterlings, Hultafors or any of the other quality axe manufacturers haven't had to put a warning like this on their product ...
Warning: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. For more information visit www.P65Warnings.ca.gov

That's a very common warning on many things made in the US. AFAIK it just means it contains on of 900 chemicals and I expect many EU axes would have similar warnings if made from the same materials in the US.

 

[Wayne]

Axes are my thing. I use one pretty much daily. All the comments by Chris et al have merit. Yet i often go to my tiny Norway Axe.. No obvious makers mark. Weights less than 500g but cuts way better than my GB wildlife hatchet or my 3 gb SFA. It’s not a splitting tool but does split wood quite nicely with the addition of a beetle.

I’d pay £145 for another Norway Axe even if it was my last money in my account. It’s a thing of beauty.
£145 for a titanium axe with dubious marketing claims and rather poor science let me think. I’d be interested to try one and carve a bow with it.

I think it’s unlikely to survive my usage
.

 

[shaggystu]

Only been back five minutes and already being controversial.....

I like it. Titanium hammers are slowly becoming standard on building sites, even though they're often quite literally 10X the price of traditional steel hammers. force = mass x acceleration, so if a thing weighs half as much, but you can move it twice as fast, then it hits with exactly the same "power".

I have no opinion at all about how easy it would be to sharpen, or what the edge retention is like, but most materials trade one for the other to a large extent so I'd be surprised if it was poor in both areas.

I'd be really curious to give it a try as a "camp axe", I think it could really excel in the role, I would NOT want to try spoon carving with it.

 

[TLM]

I have no opinion at all about how easy it would be to sharpen, or what the edge retention is like, but most materials trade one for the other to a large extent so I'd be surprised if it was poor in both areas.

Sharpness in an axe is not necessarily the same as in a knife. Especially in an axe that does not cut but split.

force = mass x acceleration

True but not necessarily relevant.

so if a thing weighs half as much, but you can move it twice as fast, then it hits with exactly the same power.

This relates to linear momentum, I guess, but not really to Newton's second. It is not quite clear if linear momentum acts like in an elastic collision when splitting or crushing. The English word "power" should not be allowed without an explanation what it means in context.