Titanium Hatchet?

[Woodswoman]

Would like opinions on this:

Titanium Axe – Tomahawk Camping Axe, 18in & 11.5in Wood Handles, Hammer End | Wrango Tools

Unleash the power of titanium. 2pc lightweight titanium axe comes with two handles: 18in handle for tasks & 11.5in for throwing & tasks. Includes blade sheath.

wrangotools.com

Gracie

 

[TLM]

"Lightweight titanium head with twice the yield strength of steel"

At least this claim is non factual. Also it is not at all clear why a less dense material than steel would be better.

 

[Broch]

Part of the value of an axe is that it has mass - why do you want a light weight one?

 

[HillBill]

Won't hold an edge like steel... Too light in weight - requires more effort from you as a result... Add that extra effort to a blunter axe = a more dangerous tool.

Wouldn't have one given.

 

[Buckshot]

I'm sure some titanium fans would buy it.
For me, it looks like a solution to a problem from someone who doesn't understand the tool, or how to use it!

 

[hughtrimble]

That is a peculiar concept

 

[TLM]

The concept resembles aluminium sledge hammer.

 

[Broch]

Sorry Gracie, we've all been a bit scathing, but I really don't understand the design philosophy for the thing

 

[Pattree]

@ £100+ I suspect that the majority of these shall join the vast tribe of shed queen axes out there.

 

[Chris]

There are some reviews from people saying they like it, though of course I can’t verify if they’re real or not.

Perhaps it’d be fine for clearing overgrown trails and chopping small bits and pieces around a camp? Trying to work out what the use case is.

I have to say my instinct is one of skepticism though, Titanium has never been the first metal that comes to mind as suitable for a hatchet. I wouldn’t want to write it off completely though if others have found it works.

 

[TeeDee]

Sorry Gracie, we've all been a bit scathing, but I really don't understand the design philosophy for the thing

Did you not read that bit?!??!

Its T-I-T-A-N-I-U-M !

 

[Pattree]

Its T-I-T-A-N-I-U-M !

Ahhhhhhh Ahhhhhhhh Meëëëën.

 

[TLM]

Nah, that's nothing, if it were unobtainium I could possibly be interested.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I am not willing to entirely rule out that there could be a case for a lighter head that occupies the same volume as a heavier steel head…but….
The consistent use of deceptive marketing language in the advertising makes me think the aim is sell to the uninformed rather than make a practical high performance tool.

The yield strength line, 120kpsi = 827MPa, which is higher than some steel, higher than the 420 stainless used in cheap hardware store axes, but not the steel one would get from Hults or Gransfors.

They claim the blade is triple honed, while a similar steel axe is completely dull and must be sharpened by the user. Seriously?!?
They claim steel axes come without sheaths, and have handles that cannot be replaced. All the axes I have bought have sheaths and I have replaced three or four handles…it’s what one does!

The case for a titanium axe or hammer is that certain dimensions are needed for certain jobs. You need a given thickness in order to split, you cannot just keep thinning a steel head to reduce weight without altering the geometry. Similarly, lighter steel heads tend to be smaller, less edge length and less bite depth. Depending on task, a lot of effort in wielding an axe can be used by controlling torque and over swing (follow through). A lighter head can help with this. For splitting I don’t think there is much case for that light a head, but for cutting, maybe.

Mostly I agree it’s a gimmick, like most fishing lures are really meant to catch fishermen more than fish! Stick titanium in something and it will sell.

 

[TLM]

I once handled a Ti divers knife, owner said that he sharpened it as well as he could. It felt kind of sharp but it did not cut well.
Admittedly an axe does not work like a knife but I still think that steel probably has an advantage there.
I think C_C is right that in many cases an axe head has to have a certain thicknes to work well and that might lead to slightly heavy heads at times.
An Fe/Al combination might be a solution if that is the case. It would take some testing to determine a reasonable combination of materials and dimensions.

 

[DennisD]

Not a gimmick, and I would be more than happy to answer any questions for you gents... But our resident expert Mecha does a much better job than I do. It does hold an edge, it hits hard, and it's easier to swing with more control - Everything you would expect from titanium. Anyone claiming it's lower Rockwell hardness vs. steel as a reason for failure just doesn't understand the properties of titanium.

You can read through his comments on pages 2/3 here:

Titanium Axe... what say you?

I guess it's one of things you need to try in person to know. I'll take your word on it as a trusted source. Color me surprised that titanium suits this role. You and me both! I'll try to take a video later today showing what I mean. It really is just a matter of the lighter weight making a...

www.bladeforums.com

Titanium Axe... what say you?

Those are exactly the specs and behaviors of cast straight grade 5, with a couple extra HRC points attributable to a less pure alloy. For blade use, less pure is better than more pure. Grade 23, which is 6al4v ELI (extra-low interstitial, super pure) is the worst of the 6al4v iterations for a...

www.bladeforums.com

For our viewing audience here, one thing I want to stress (no pun intended) is the work-hardening effect for something like this hatchet. Work-hardening doesn't even capture it, so I used to call it "seasoning." Ti alloys, especially alpha-beta alloys, are sado-masochistic and love to get slapped around impacted. The more it gets used, the better it will get. This effect isn't subtle, you will notice it by the third sharpening when it seems like it never needs a fourth. It will "awaken" as it's used, and literally get stronger.

My heat treatment techniques reduce this effect by a lot, by drastically changing the crystalline matrix, but it really only works on a Beta or near-Beta alloy, by converting a large part of the matrix from Beta into Alpha Prime, or even Alpha Double Prime, which is also called "titanium martensite." This is a very internally-stressed form.

This isn't a thing in titanium industrial use. Normally the properties of each alloy are altered through alloying alone, with or without the intent of solution treating and aging, which is to increase strength, refine grain, reduce stress, equalize, etc, not to harden. Whatever Rockwell hardness results is simply a side effect and has little to no bearing on expected mechanical properties. In fact an HRC test on titanium can be like 5 points above or below the average number on a single sample, and is not considered a useful metric in titanium engineering.

The hatchet's performance will not be determined by a Rockwell test number, but that number will go up with use. For blades there is still a correlation.

Edit to add, for use as a blade titanium will naturally be "harder," but it isn't like a 'What Rockwell you run that at?' kind of thing. I just use the term "harden" because that's the word typically used to describe the effect. Alpha Prime is significantly harder than an Alpha-Beta matrix as a matter of course, but the hardness number isn't the goal. The goal is to put the titanium into a form where is can NOT gall, take a set, smoosh, roll, etc. If it is impacted beyond its yield strength, it will instead chip or break a little piece off of the edge, but this takes something crazy like swinging and hitting a rock. Even in this form, it isn't very abrasion-resistant but is incredibly stable and strong, even for a fine thin edge, and is flexible but quite stiff.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Hello Dennis,

For everyone’s clarity, Dennis is the founder of Wrangotools.

Is Mecha working with you on this project? From that Bladeforum thread it didn’t seem so, but your post here made it sound like he is involved.


Thanks

Chris

 

[DennisD]

Hello Dennis,

For everyone’s clarity, Dennis is the founder of Wrangotools.

Is Mecha working with you on this project? From that Bladeforum thread it didn’t seem so, but your post here made it sound like he is involved.


Thanks

Chris

I am the founder of Wrango Tools. I never suggested Mecha was involved, he's just our resident expert in titanium, which makes his credibility even stronger as an independent voice.

 

[TLM]

Hmmm ... where should I start (aerospace structural and materials engineer), norhing wrong with Ti itself but a tool that partly relies on momentum to work properly does not automatically benefit from lower density. A slitting axe needs both a certain mass and thickness to work properly, a GP hatchet only needs mass. With Ti one probably ends up in one rarely used corner in the design space. Is it useless, no, but in general use proper steels are more cost effective.

Requirement for resistance to sea water, non magnetic or slightly so, non sparking, few people need that but if one does then Ti delivers.

 

[DennisD]

Hmmm ... where should I start (aerospace structural and materials engineer), norhing wrong with Ti itself but a tool that partly relies on momentum to work properly does not automatically benefit from lower density. A slitting axe needs both a certain mass and thickness to work properly, a GP hatchet only needs mass. With Ti one probably ends up in one rarely used corner in the design space. Is it useless, no, but in general use proper steels are more cost effective.

Requirement for resistance to sea water, non magnetic or slightly so, non sparking, few people need that but if one does then Ti delivers.

These are tomahawks, and can be used anywhere tomahawks are used, plus the additional versatility of lighter weight and slip-fit designs, so extremely light and compact enabling storage in a backpack for overlanding | bushcraft | survival where you need to save weight and space.

Use if for what it was designed for, and it works great. There are many applications for it.

The weight | momentum | kinetic energy argument is often cited with titanium. There are certainly applications where you want a heavier mass - like for splitting. But there's an upper limit - we don't use 20lb heads for that because the person is doing the work, not the axe. If the axe was doing the work you could simply drop (freefall) a 20lb axe head on a log and it would split it. But it doesn't. Sweet spot is about 4lb - 6lb head on a 36" handle. (**I split 2-3 cords a year and prefer even heavier**)

Point being... There are certainly benefits to a lighter titanium design when swinging an axe, but of course there are upper and lower limits to this. You have to find the "sweet spot" where the swing feels natural and easy. That's achievable with tomahawks in the 15" - 24" handle range. You naturally swing it faster, you naturally have more control, and you feel less fatigue. Don't forget...you're doing work on the downswing AND upswing. Chop a log ~50 swings steel vs. titanium (same handle length) and you can instantly feel the difference. Titanium is much easier to use, you're not fatigued, and it hits just as hard (usually harder because you're naturally swinging faster with more control... Not to mention titanium transfers energy better than steel).

We sell each titanium tomahawk with two interchangeable handles. 11.5in and 18in. There's no real leverage advantage with the titanium head + 11.5in handle, it's just too short. But that handle offers the ability to do certain tasks easier and it's so compact & light you can "carry" it when hiking or backpacking. The 18in handle is different. It offers a lot of leverage advantages and you can instantly feel it. It's in the "sweet spot" zone.

I'm sure the next objections will be that it can't hold an edge (too soft) and you can't sharpen it (too hard). Those are typical objections from those who don't understand the properties of titanium. Usually Rockwell hardness is sited as why titanium is too soft and can't hold an edge. The properties of titanium are very different than steel, and Rockwell hardness is essentially a useless parameter with titanium. It work hardens, so the Rockwell measurement isn't accurate nor predictive of it's performance. The high yield strength and tensile strength is what helps it perform well and hold and edge. I've heard that titanium knives don't hold and edge - I'm not an expert here so I don't know for sure. I suspect it's the sharpness and thin blade that might smoosh or gall when used. For a sharp knife, you want a Bess sharpness of under 150g and the best are under 100g. Axe blades don't get that thin or sharp - so they don't gall or smoosh. For sharpening, titanium will gall if you use a grinding wheel but does well with a diamond sharpening stone ($15 in the US market, sorry, I don't know what's available in the UK). Fairly easy to sharpen by hand.

Appreciate the post. I'm not here to change opinions of those who posted... Honestly if you're saying it won't work without trying it.... Then I know I won't change your opinion.

I'm here to answer questions and offer insight to those might read through this thread and have an open mind about a different style of a tomahawk axe.