But you wouldn't be committing an offence unless you intended to use it as a weapon or actually used it as a weapon....why is that stupid?
Seat belt cutters - legality?
- Thread starter slowworm
- Start date
-
Come along to the amazing Summer Moot (21st July - 2nd August), a festival of bushcrafting and camping in a beautiful woodland PLEASE CLICK HERE for more information.
- Status
But you wouldn't be committing an offence unless you intended to use it as a weapon or actually used it as a weapon....why is that stupid?
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 defines any object with a blade or point as a weapon.
Section 139 sub 1: "any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence."
Section 139 sub 2: "this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife."
So this law exempts only folding pocket knifes from the definition of weapon, and ignores all other sharp and pointy objects.
It declares that anything with a bladed edge or point is inherently a weapon, regardless of the context in which it is used. This is a "guilty until proven innocent" law, one of the worst of its kind. It allows too much circumstantial interpretation by unqualified police officers (tasked with enforcing laws they don't understand as demonstrated day after day after day).
Because by that very same logic, it should not be illegal to carry any bladed or pointy tool if not used as a weapon.
And yet the politicos have yet to outlaw the carrying of pens! It has nothing to do with safety, it's all about the illusion of safety (over-reacting to whatever's going on in the press at any given moment, such as the exaggeration of street thugs carrying knives back in the late 80's)
Not sure about those things. They're not pens that can be used as weapons, they're weapons thinly disguised as pens.
That may be, but in the eyes of the law they are a pen. If they had a bladed edge, different story.
Still, all we need is a few articles in the press about these evil new weapons and how they're dangerous to society (regardless of the absence of evidence to support such a claim, or the fact that anything can be used as a weapon if that's the operator's intent) and then we'll get a whopping great amendment to the 1988 Criminal Justice Act allowing police offices to inspect anyone at random without any justification and declare at their own discretion that a pen or pencil is a weapon rather than a tool.
Nothing but over-reaction and the illusion of security... in exchange for every ounce of freedom our human rights were supposed to guarantee.
It does not define them as weapons , but it does prohibit their possession in a public place. It is bad law and as such incapable of being utilised with any commonsense, I have had arguments with prosecutors about what constitutes a prohibited "sharply pointed item" and every time I point out to them that the pen or pencil in their hand contravenes the Act, they have no answer, as there is no difference in the statute definition between that and a sharpened screwdriver.
I agree with you in many ways, simply pointing out that there are pens you can stab people with, and then there are stabbing weapons you can write with.
By the way, I happen to agree with your views on these. Weapons masquerading (poorly) as pens. Still... you won't soon catch anyone having troubles with the local jackboots for carrying one because a disguised weapon of design (they are by the manufacturer's own description designed to be a weapon) is so much more preferable for people to be carrying than a tool.
What's worse is when you recognize that people carrying these so-called "tactical pens" carry them for the specific purpose of using them as a weapon. Meanwhile, most people who carry a knife are using the knife as a tool with absolutely zero intent to use it as a weapon. Hell, I treasure my bushcraft knives so much I wouldn't dream of sullying them with people's blood (especially when there are so many other less messy ways to defend myself).
The Criminal Justice Act itself directly states in the first two subsections of the pertinent section that any bladed or pointed object is illegal to carry, with the exception of a <3" folding blade (such as a swiss army knife). This in itself is the declaration of all bladed and pointed objects as being "weapons".
I am very familiar with the legislation, and having checked it again i cannot find the definition you keep referring to. It creates an offence of possession of a pointed/bladed article under certain conditions but does not describe them as weapons.
I'm not sure where all these 'unqualified police officers' you are referring to are, but I certainly haven't come across them. There is an old saying about not judging a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes/boots, seems quite apt here.
I've encountered plenty of them... even had some of them fired after being dragged for an 18 month prosecution for a crime which never even took place. They failed to collect any evidence, they ignored liability despite it being blatantly pointed out, they lied about my rights and falsified a statement. I don't doubt that there are good police officers out there... I've just yet to meet one.
Also... section 139A "Offence of having article with blade or point (or offensive weapon)" as stated directly in law. It clarifies the definition of bladed/pointed objects as being "offensive weapons"
Last edited:
Ah but you are making the mistake of trying to apply logic to law-making, clearly that is not appropriate or we would have far less legislation than we currently do.
Also, as i said before the application of the legislation is contextual, you live i am assuming buy your location in a fairly rural area. The typical behaviour of people in you area is probably quite different to that of youths in inner city estates.
No, it is not - it is a declaration that they are illegal to possess in a public place, no more, no less. There are separate prosecutions for possession of offensive weapons and appropriate definitions of those things which are so classed.
I'm afraid you are mis-reading the statute - the section you refer to there relates to a separate specific crime of carrying bladed/pointed items OR offensive weapons in SCHOOLS and the chapter of the Act relating to Sections 139 - 142 may be headed "Articles with blades or points and offensive weapons" but that is because there are a variety of sections contained there and it is S141 which relates to offensive weapons not those you have quoted. This stuff is what I do for a living, I'm not, as clearly stated already, defending the legislation, but it is what it is, please do not misrepresent it.
Last edited:
Valid points (all) and yes, context is king. Here in the middle of nowhere, carrying a knife is basically a universal standard. Never know when you might want to pick some wild edibles, or have to cut reeds off that are snagging you (or your dog, whatever).
Still I take umbridge with any law that unilaterally assumes guilt and intent. Rather than criminalizing the use of pointed and bladed objects as weapons (which is already illegal anyway) it criminalizes the public possession of tools merely because they could be used as a weapon. In the last month I've seen no less than a dozen "murder by automobile" incidents on just Sky News alone... yet we don't make vehicles illegal.
The law is prejudicial for no legitimate reason, therefore it cannot be respected. The problem with silly legislation like this is that it gives people a very legitimate reason to disrespect the law as a whole (and the system which produces it)
Well i think there are just under 130,000 police officer in the UK at the mo (or there were prior to the recent cuts), so by the law of average it stands to reason that there are going to be a certain number of incompetent, indolent or outright corrupt officers within that number. My experience is that they are firmly in the minority.....
s.139A only applies to the offence being committed on school premises, this was the get round to the fact that s.139 did not create the offence in a school which is not a public place.
Regardless of its particular area of affect, it still makes the declaratory clarification of bladed and pointed objects being considered "offensive weapons"
As others have said it is a very clumsy law, it can be very difficult to use and sometimes difficult to interpret depending on the situation. But i for one would rather have it than not to give the police some power to deal with certain situations, ie: the inner city council estates/schools were kids are taking knives/screwdrivers etc with them into class. Could it be improved? Absolutely! Is it needed? Sadly, yes i think so....
No it doesn't, not all off weaps are bladed or pointed, nor are all bladed or pointed articles off weaps!
"Offence of having article with blade or point (OR offensive weapon) on school premises." I do not see how why you regard the "or" as a statuatory declaration, nor am i aware of any case law that does this.
- Status
Similar threads
