Ever not known how you feel about something?

[British Red]

I watched something odd today...and I am turning it over in my mind....not really sure how I feel about (or whether how I feel about it matters of course)

I watched a medium sized combine with 3 foot spinning blades on the front do this


Combine Output by British Red, on Flickr


Now that seems normal. What was less normal...to me....was watching hundred acres of corn (which to me is a food crop) shredded to pulp

This was being done for "biomass" to feed a "biogas digester"


Combine Harvester by British Red, on Flickr

Just feels ...weird...to see maize...with full ears of ripe corn...shredded to a pulp and sprayed into huge trailers...dozens and dozens of trailers. These trailers were then driven many miles to a biodigester to make green energy.

Now, don't get me wrong, these farms are on a knife edge to survive and if they can make more money chopping up crops to turn them into energy rather than sell them as food, well, good luck to them....its probably a result of our drive for cheap food, combined with the rising cost of energy that makes it work. It just makes me go "huh?" to see enormous machines shredding hundreds of acres of food crops to rot them down in a controlled way

Not looking for any political observations or commentary on "green energy" just wondering if anyone else sometimes thinks "the world has gone mad" or if its old age that makes me think it

 

[Jared]

I think bio fuels made from food crops is insane.

In places like Mexico it seems to be a problem, as corn tortillas are a staple and prices have gone up something like 70% in the last 5 years due to the bio fuels.

 

[British Red]

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent fellow. I just don't understand this though. We cannot feed ourselves in Britain so we import food by burning fossil fuels. We then grind up food that we grow right here to make energy - that we burned importing food.

All this whilst people in the world starve.

I must be dumber than I thought.

 

[Jared]

Yeah. Here's link to the Mexico study

http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/policy_research/EthanolCostMexico.html

 

[tallywhacker]

Personally i like to see it. To me it is more seeing the world get wise than go insane.

Hunger is not caused by stuff like this so to associate this as a waste of food is somewhat misplaced.

You wanna talk seeing the world go crazy: For every steak you have on your plate the grain used to sustain the cow could have easily fed over 8 people, or so it was put to me at uni.. That cow needs energy to live after all. Alternatively that space saved by cutting back on cheap meat could be used to produce more beneficial crops like legumes and dark greens, feeding more people for less space and money, at a time when the world is crowded, hungry and financially tight. Now that to me really is the world gone mad.

Stop feeding cows corn, keep using it for fuel i say.

Not to say your way of thinking is crazy, it is probably quite the norm. I would argue however that is illogical.

 

[tallywhacker]

This is part of the reason the eu will soon be slipping insects into your burgers

 

[British Red]

This isn't a question of vegetarian vs omnivore though (Btw if you feed cows maize for long, they die of liver failure)

We import corn burning fossil fuels to ship it at the same time as rotting down home grown corn to make electricity. How can that be efficient?

 

[Jared]

That'll take some convincing.

A cow is a specialised herbivore, and does a better job of digesting and extracting resources from vegetation than humans do.
Omnivores, and carnivores tend to have simpler digestive systems, follows meat is easier to digest.


The real problem is over population, anyway, and no amount of legumes or dark greens can supply an ever increasing population.

 

[Jared]

This isn't a question of vegetarian vs omnivore though (Btw if you feed cows maize for long, they die of liver failure)

We import corn burning fossil fuels to ship it at the same time as rotting down home grown corn to make electricity. How can that be efficient?

It's the "buy local" message that's pushed on consumers, but businesses not listening it seems.

 

[tallywhacker]

My apologies if any of this sounds a bit terse or edgy, i re-read it and can see how it could be read that way however i'm not trying to be and i struggle to come across friendly when writing large replies like this

"This isn't a question of vegetarian vs omnivore though (Btw if you feed cows maize for long, they die of liver failure)"

Farmers are not to concerned about health issues like liver failure in animals they intend to eat. Most arrive at the slaughter house full of tumours and all other kids of health ailments. Grains are used on an extensive scale feeding cattle.

I am not attempting to argue for vegetarianism, that is pointless, people will do what they will do. If i wanted to come to BCUK and argue such topics 1) it would have been pro veganism 2) i would have found a better thread to target, like the hunting/trapping threads... I don't know why your jumping the gun and saying i am arguing for vegetarianism, you have just assumed that...

This topic, and my post was about corn and what was perceived as a waste of food. Given that most of the -worlds- corn is used to feed cows my point is absolutely valid on your topic. I thought i aimed my words at this point quite directly, in fact i absolutely did

I engaged this as an enviro science student, not as a vegan, and am simply implying it is less wasteful to use the corn as fuel than it's probable alternative use.

Jared:

That cow expends a lot of energy just to move given it's mass. They have to near constantly eat to live, not at all efficient as a herbivore. The only thing a cow is efficient at is gaining nutrients from grass, which means carrying 6 extra stomachs (thus extra weight/size) while eating. Consider the many joules of energy a cow converts/transfers in it's lifespan, and by the farmers/machinery keeping them. Compare that to how many joules of energy are on your plate...

Furthermore we are not carnivores, we evolved from frugivore primates. Any modern day bio anthropolgist worth their salt will tell you that. We are not even 'definitely' omnivores as is now the accepted norm. Evolutionary biologists still debate whether we are omnivores or frugivores Our dental structure is still likened to a frugivore yet our digestive systems are starting to adapt, albeit not enough to consume raw meat or most root vegetables

We as humans are less efficient at eating meat than fruit and leafy greens, that is a hard fact. Efficiency with meat comes in the guise of having to eat less for your calories, and the fact that the animal is gut loaded on stuff you would have to gather anyway; not being more adept at digesting/processing it. It is basically the easy option.

Over population really wouldn't be as big a problem as is currently if the said population was more efficient with how it obtains and uses it's energy. I mean energy in a broad physics sense here. Waste is the problem and topic of this thread thus food selection is indeed a vital factor.

 

[tallywhacker]

"We import corn burning fossil fuels to ship it at the same time as rotting down home grown corn to make electricity. How can that be efficient?"

I'm simply arguing it is probably more efficient than it's likely alternative use, feeding cattle It would more than likely be exported as cattle feed if not used as fuel.

Import and export are indeed inefficient, i agree on that. Unfortunately in the modern world we ain't getting around that. The climate is too restrictive on crops for the most part, furthermore people would indeed rather buy cheap than local. It is always going to be cheaper to mass produce crops in countries with more sunlight and less regulations.

In an ideal world all crops and cattle would be local, i would like that and where i don't grow my own food i try my best to get it locally or within the UK (it costs though). However as someone who grows the vast majority of his own food i can tell you it get's a bit boring and tiresome eating according to season's and what crops happened to get a high yield. Crops can be very unpredictable in the UK and not all crops do so well under artificial indoor lights.

On a side note: This is also probably ultra cheap GMO corn not fit for human consumption, if so it is easier to grow, has less regulations to adhere to and thus is cheaper and more profitable for an arable farmer to produce than a crop intended for human consumption. Not exactly a like for like crop, in fact aside from the name corn it's an entirely different beast.

 

[santaman2000]

"This isn't a question of vegetarian vs omnivore though (Btw if you feed cows maize for long, they die of liver failure)"

I am not attempting to argue for vegetarianism, that is pointless people will do what they will do. However this was about corn and a waste of food. Given that most of the -worlds- corn is used to feed cows my point is absolutely valid on your topic......

True to an extent. But most of the world's production of Magnesium Hydroxide is also used to treat indigestion of cattle in feed lots.

 

[santaman2000]

.....Furthermore we are not carnivores, we evolved from frugivore primates. Any modern day bio anthropolgist worth their salt will tell you that.....

Not really. Most primates are omnivores. Chimps love eating insects, larvae, and grubs. Gorillas love eating monkeys.

 

[santaman2000]

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent fellow. I just don't understand this though. We cannot feed ourselves in Britain so we import food by burning fossil fuels. We then grind up food that we grow right here to make energy - that we burned importing food.

All this whilst people in the world starve.

I must be dumber than I thought.

No you're not dumb BR. It is kinda hard to wrap your head around this. But then I also consider that the Indians once used edible fish to fertilize their corn crop.

 

[British Red]

On a side note: This is also probably ultra cheap GMO corn not fit for human consumption, if so it is easier to grow, has less regulations to adhere to and thus is cheaper and more profitable for an arable farmer to produce than a crop intended for human consumption. Not exactly a like for like crop, in fact aside from the name corn it's an entirely different beast.

No GM maize is grown in Britain tallywhacker

https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...ronment/supporting-pages/genetic-modification

 

[British Red]

That cow expends a lot of energy just to move given it's mass. They have to near constantly eat to live, not at all efficient as a herbivore. The only thing a cow is efficient at is gaining nutrients from grass, which means carrying 6 extra stomachs (thus extra weight/size) while eating.

6 extra stomachs? A cow only has one stomach - although it has four compartments.

 

[tallywhacker]

No GM maize is grown in Britain tallywhacker

https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...ronment/supporting-pages/genetic-modification

Hence why i underlined probably, i was applying global logic which would be correct. I am not too clued up on the eu regs on GMO.

Not really. Most primates are omnivores. Chimps love eating insects, larvae, and grubs. Gorillas love eating monkeys.

I said humans evolved from frugivore primates, not simply primates. Chimps are frugivores, they are however like most animals opportunistic. What they are evolved to eat does not define what they may/can/will get away with eating. Cows are herbivores and can digest flesh, for example.

A good place to confirm what i say would be reading some modern (bio) anthropological / evo biology papers on the subject.

It is a heavily contested topic indeed between omnivore and frugivore, chimps sometimes even eat chimps, however classifications of animals is not defined by what they may possibly eat else near everything would simply be omnivore. It is all about lineage and evolution, the consensus WAS omnivore, it is now frugivore.

The fact remains we are not more adept at eating meat then fruit and vegetables, which is precisely the point i was making.

6 extra stomachs? A cow only has one stomach - although it has four compartments.

I was indeed incorrect, what i was getting at was that it has a larger more intricate stomach in order to be able to get enough energy from it's food source, which is correct.

All in all quite small points to be wrong on, especially at such an early hour. Nothing that sways the point i was making in the first place.

I really didn't want to sidetrack the thread, apologies for that, maybe next time i should just give a generic agreeable first reply

 

[British Red]

I don't know about correct or incorrect. The acres turned over to growing corn have grown food that was sold for human consumption up to this year (wheat, peas and brassicas). Now its producing biomass for "green energy". The result is that more fossil fuels will be burned to import food. Just seems peculiar to me.

 

[Dave]

Worlds short of food, and they do that? Does seem a bit wasteful dont it?

 

[TeeDee]

< I have nothing to contribute , just top say this is an interesting and thought provoking thread. Hope it continues without turning into any sort of Bun fight. It also seems strange to me that I pass many,many arable fields that have all gone down the PV array side of things. Different subject however. >