Displaying knives in public

[Toddy]

The realilty is that knife crime is a huge issue Chutes, 42% versus firearms crime which is, according the the official reports of the Scottish Parliament, 1% of reported violence against an individual.
Priorities, y'know ?
and we don't have 'armed' gangs roaming the streets, but we do have the occasional group of eejits tooled up with knives at times, usually in response to other groups of similar eejits
Those eejits though, they're young men, someone's sons, brothers, nephews, grandsons, friends, neighbours; and it concerns the whole of society when violence erupts.
The UK is still, despite all the media screaming and doomsaying from foreigners where gun ownership is prevalent (bias or what, there ) one of the most lightly policed nations.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S3/SB_11-23.pdf

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Corso]

The realilty is that knife crime is a huge issue Chutes, 42% versus firearms crime which is, according the the official reports of the Scottish Parliament, 1% of reported violence against an individual.
Priorities, y'know ?
and we don't have 'armed' gangs roaming the streets, but we do have the occasional group of eejits tooled up with knives at times, usually in response to other groups of similar eejits
Those eejits though, they're young men, someone's sons, brothers, nephews, grandsons, friends, neighbours; and it concerns the whole of society when violence erupts.
The UK is still, despite all the media screaming and doomsaying from foreigners where gun ownership is prevalent (bias or what, there ) one of the most lightly policed nations.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S3/SB_11-23.pdf

cheers,
Toddy

he got banned?

 

[cbr6fs]

The realilty is that knife crime is a huge issue Chutes, 42% versus firearms crime which is, according the the official reports of the Scottish Parliament, 1% of reported violence against an individual.
Priorities, y'know ?
and we don't have 'armed' gangs roaming the streets, but we do have the occasional group of eejits tooled up with knives at times, usually in response to other groups of similar eejits
Those eejits though, they're young men, someone's sons, brothers, nephews, grandsons, friends, neighbours; and it concerns the whole of society when violence erupts.
The UK is still, despite all the media screaming and doomsaying from foreigners where gun ownership is prevalent (bias or what, there ) one of the most lightly policed nations.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S3/SB_11-23.pdf

cheers,
Toddy

It's a difficult situation.

You can't ban knives like they did handguns for the simple fact that we use them daily for everything from opening boxes through to cutting and preparing our food.

So they ban carrying then in public.
Problem here is this affects everyone, including those that carry knives for practical reasons, even worse is the fact that the crims will only use cheap kitchen knives so when they are stolen it's no lose to them.
When a person carries a knife with legal intentions then often carry a more expensive knife.

Add to that the fact that if a crim is caught with a knife the punishment is hardly a deterrent compared to the consequences of taking some ones life, yet for a law abiding citizen going to court can be a traumatic ordeal, especially when they had absolutely no intentions of doing something wrong.

Education is the best solution, but this will take anything up to 10 years before anyone starts to see the statistics to this, as governments can't and won't think beyond their next term of office this is too long a time frame for them.
God forbid that a government party implement a sensible solution only for another party to claim the glory 10 years down the line.

So it's a tough one.
On one hand i'm happy that it's slightly more difficult for certain elements in society to carry knives, if it reduces the chance of my loved ones being stabbed by 1% then it's a good thing.

On the other hand as someone that usually has a knife with them it is crap that us law abiding people have to (yet again) be inconvenienced by knee jerk reaction to the actions of the scum of society.
It pisses me off more that these scum know the in's and out's of the law better than most solicitors and will usually find a way to either ditch the knife or by some technicality of the law get away with it.
Add to that the fact that i think it's highly unlikely the current laws keep my kids 1% safer and it's a pretty rubbish law all round really.

The law is THAT ambiguous it's difficult to know what to do, many law abiding citizens like myself end up feeling guilty about carry a lock knife even though we have absolutely no illegal intentions.
Honest law abiding folks that feel a knife is a tool for their work are having their expensive well looked after and well maintained knives confiscated.
If the courts had a modicum of common sense they'd kick these cases out, but as it is only a brave or stupid person would risk a criminal conviction against a £100 or less knife being confiscated.

Meanwhile crims who get a £1 steak knife confiscated don't care in the slightest.

It's a tough one.

 

[Vulpes]

Go to the right London pub and get chatting to the right people and you'll be able to get anything. Knives are the least of our problems. It would help if the Police were much less wet behind the ears and if someone actually patrolled the estates at night. If you go to most other countries, knives aren't illegal to carry because they're not classed as a weapon but as a tool. Quite rightly really.

 

[Toddy]

reply to post # 163




Wholeheartedly agree.
We just keep quietly reasserting responsibility.......from carrying to using.
The statistics for the last couple of years actually seem to indicate that the situation is stabilising. Knife crime figures aren't rising, and if anything there's a slight decrease. Too early to claim it out loud and push for any ease, but it's hopeful.

Basically, provided one has a legitimate use for the knife in question, and it's not being carried someplace totally not on....like a school or a nightclub....then we have every right to carry a knife.
We're just all being very careful and circumspect about it and not aggravating the situation, while quietly using our tools as usual

Chutes was banned for swearing. It's a very short ban and should time out (I'd need to check, it wasn't me) in a day or so. (well it was, until he started mouthing off at the Boss

cheers,
Toddy

 

[mrcharly]

So they ban carrying then in public.

Please don't say this.

It isn't true. Every time someone repeats this, it becomes a mantra, a 'trueism'. The papers repeat it, the 'man on the street' says it. Then we get stupid overreactions to someone doing something innocent like cutting string on a parcel with a tiny SAK.

 

[Smudge]

I was less concerned seeing people wearing knives (although I honestly didn't see the point) than I was the amount of little pyromaniac's running around trying to set everything alight with ferro rods :twak:

Didn't enjoy the show and won't be going again.

 

[cbr6fs]

Please don't say this.

It isn't true. Every time someone repeats this, it becomes a mantra, a 'trueism'. The papers repeat it, the 'man on the street' says it. Then we get stupid overreactions to someone doing something innocent like cutting string on a parcel with a tiny SAK.

Lock knives are illegal to carry in the UK unless you can prove that you had a genuine reason for carrying the knife.

Personally i carry a lock knife as i strongly believe the risk of cutting myself with a non locking knife is a millions times higher than me being stopped and searched.


It's a crazy situation, your effectively being arrested for something you MIGHT do in the future not for your actions.
I guess innocent till PROVEN guilty no longer matters

 

[Toddy]

Nah, you only get arrested if you're found to be carrying in circumstances that made a policeman suspicious enough to check, *and* you subsequentially had no legitimate reason to be carrying the knife in the first place.

Tbh, the knife laws were stringent enough, but something had to be done to make the public majority actually listen to them. So we all have to become *aware* of carrying knives, the right knives, in the right situations.

Irritating as all get out sometimes, but it's not that we're instantly guilty if we do carry, or use, a knife. Just how we go about it, iimmc.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[boatman]

Scotland seems to be even more obsessive than England and today it's knives but aren't swords in danger of being banned, to quote one SMP "why would anyone wants a sword?". My reply would be that it is none of his business if I want a sword and I have several. Enjoy ever more parochial legislation if independence comes.

 

[Pierr]

Not sure about UK specificity, but in France justifying that you have a knife by the fact that you do "bushcraft" would lead you to another problem: you are not allowed (even if there would be some level of tolerance) to cut wood and make fire in woods as most are either private or protected domanial forest.

It would be like justifying carrying a machine gun because you intend to rob a bank ...

 

[Pict]

Nah, you only get arrested if you're found to be carrying in circumstances that made a policeman suspicious enough to check, *and* you subsequentially had no legitimate reason to be carrying the knife in the first place.

Tbh, the knife laws were stringent enough, but something had to be done to make the public majority actually listen to them. So we all have to become *aware* of carrying knives, the right knives, in the right situations.

Irritating as all get out sometimes, but it's not that we're instantly guilty if we do carry, or use, a knife. Just how we go about it, iimmc.

cheers,
Toddy

It seems to me that a rudimentary permit system would resolve much of the irritation and ambiguity. The state does have the right to legislate the carrying of "weapons" and I get it that this is prohibited in the UK. Legitimate blade use falls into three main categories, occupational use, sporting use, and collecting, all of these involve transport out of the home. A simple permit would suffice for the officer on the street to know that you have no criminal record, drug history, domestic abuse history, or mental condition and that your reason to transport the knife has already been verified. They wouldn't even have to change the current law, just add in a layer of protection for legitimate users.

 

[21st century pict]

Ops sorry nothing to see here...

 

[21st century pict]

Scotland seems to be even more obsessive than England and today it's knives but aren't swords in danger of being banned,

Other than the £200 Court fine over the Bebo sword image the only sword crime I know off in Scotland is the s##t swords they sell to tourists in Edinburgh.

 

[Toddy]

Yeah, and contrary to the media's hyped opinion, the UK is really not into more and more laws. Parliament (all of them) simply amends and adjusts.
I think the permit thing would be a step too far for us, Pict. Identity cards, or rather the suggestion of them, caused no end of offence and dispute. To more or less have that imposed by the back door would not go down well.
Besides, the police can just log into a computer and if we have no criminal record we aren't there

Reenactors routinely have swords, but the fact is that swords are used to kill and maim by others.
Couple of years ago, not three miles away from where I live:-
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...d-after-horrific-sword-attack-86908-22163201/

or even closer, the year before,
http://www.hamiltonadvertiser.co.uk...objectid=25091832&siteid=51525-name_page.html

or this court case last month
http://local.stv.tv/coatbridge/news...ed-to-kill-suspected-love-rival-with-a-sword/

M

 

[Pict]

Our permit system isn't onerous and really does smooth out police/civilian interaction. In my state we have the $20.00/5 year LCTF (concealed carry) and the $5.00/1 Year Sporting Use Permit that allows for a revolver during hunting, fishing, trapping, or dog training. I have had to produce my permit a few times, traffic stops and such, and it always goes very smooth, you've been vetted, the mere presence of the weapon is a non-issue. The same stop without a permit does not end so well.

In your case you aren't even talking about a weapons permit, really just the establishing the fact that you transport knives on a regular basis for sport or occupation, you've been vetted and it's a non-issue. Stop, search, find Woodlore, present sporting use permit, on your way... If the system was set up right you would still be able to transport a knife without a permit as you can now but police would then have to settle all the ambiguities and ask your reason etc.

 

[Biker]

or this court case last month
http://local.stv.tv/coatbridge/news...ed-to-kill-suspected-love-rival-with-a-sword/

Sheesh! Wrecks two men, possibly for life, with a sword. What a numpty.

I still say bring back the birch.

 

[Toddy]

The whole thing was stupid Aaron but it happens, time after time after time
That's why folks are prepared to thole restrictive legislation. I missed several others out of that list I posted, like the mother killed in front of her children by a group of people one of whom had a sword. The lady lived the other side of the river from here and in a quiet bit of the village too.
Gun ownership was hammered after the Dunblane atrocity, and though some folks were vexed, target shooters and the like, most were glad to see the restrictions in place. It's the same thing with knives.
It's an anomally to carry a knife nowadays, virtually socially unacceptable. Folks who do are in the main folks who use them as tools, but we're not the only ones and the violent crimes statistics back that up

Put it this way, I have two sons. I never once worried about them being shot, but I quietly fretted about them coming a cropper agin a nutter with a knife if they were out at night.
Imagine that repeated right across the country. That's the reality of the situation that worries and frightens people into putting their faith and hopes into the, "Carry a knife, go to jail", movement.

The only way to counter that is by education, restraint, unthreatening quiet confident capability with the knives. Tools to be used, not abused.

Back to the OP though; It depends, it really depends. I reckon at a bushcraft show or the wilderness gathering, the knife is such a part of standard kit that I thought it would have been unremarkable. Come to think on it though, I didn't wear mine when I wandered round the show I went to. I did have a folder in my bag however and, all those knives and not one violent incident where the knife became a weapon I think we actually need publicity like that

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

Gun ownership was hammered after the Dunblane atrocity, and though some folks were vexed, target shooters and the like, most were glad to see the restrictions in place.

I'm not sure that's true Mary. Most people I speak to think things have gone far too far with these laws - especially because they have been shown to be wholly ineffective. Mad men will do mad things. Ban one type of weapon and they will just get one illegally or use something else. The only people these laws affect are the law abiding. People bent on mayhem don't care about laws.

DOn't want to start a debate about - just registering that, whilst its your opinion that most people are happy with the restrictions, its certainly not the opinion of most people I know.

Might be a difference between Scotland and England I guess.

Red

 

[Woodcutter2]

Blimey dashed hot topic, I have read a few pages but not all so forgive me if this point has been raised but I personally could deploy the pint glass mentioned in the OP a lot quicker than my knife the handle of which is buried under tshirts, fleeces etc (Normandy is cold eh Aaron). Surely a bushcraft show/meet is a place where you can wear/use your knife in a sensible manner without being pilloried for it.

If someone starts waving it around etc etc moan about it, until then.........


Ps, Wantonly wandering around drinking alcohol in a public place in front of children etc etc could be equally twisted to fit a non crime as well I'd have thought