Toboggan or Pulk that is the question ????
- Thread starter Twodogs
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A crossing of sea ice to the noth pole is a completely different environment though to what we tend to do though. It would be madness to attempt the crossing with a toboggan-they don't float and would have no benefit over a pulk on pack ice and hardpacked tundra.
Toboggans have been used for thousands of years by aboriginal North americans, modern version are almost identical in design but use modern plastics instead of wood. Hauling is much more efficient than carrying and efficiency is incredibly important.Its safe to say this way of doing things is well tested and thought through
Out of curiosity, why would you choose to carry over hauling?
It wasn't my intention to start a debate on whether or not one should use a toboggan. To each his own. The reason why I stay away from any such form of transportation is that it is very limiting in where you can travel. In most mountains where I go, the toboggan will travel about 20 ft before becoming useless. A pack is the only option. Climbing mountains and bushwhacking with a toboggan is much more of a burden than help. I also find that using a sled or toboggan invites one to carry more gear than is needed. My 0C to -40C gear comes in at about 28lb (13kg) base weight and fits comfortably in a 80L pack along with up to 10 days of food and 2L of water (including crampons, ice axe and snowshoes). I've been forced into that position because in the forests and mountains where I usually go out, 95% of the places can not be reached with a sled or toboggan. I like to be able to go wherever I want, so the pack is the only option. If on the other hand I was on nice level ground, let's say somewhere in Greenland, or intended to stick to roads or river beds, then i would certainly bring some form of sled, pulk, or toboggan.
The reason why I mentioned the Weber/Malakhov expedition is that I thought they had an interesting option as a sled set up. The entire trip was over ice, not water. The sleds were not intended to float. The lid design was there so that over rough terrain if it flipped over, it could still be pulled. Similarly, the comment about the inefficiency of the toboggan as compared to the sleds was made by Weber and Malakhov, not me. In their words, the native people who used the toboggans had the good sense to leash them up to teams of dogs. They are certainly usable, it's just that when every meter and every hour counts, they found the sleds to be more efficient and easier to pull and manage. I think the OP asked for options, so I was giving one. Since I don't use any of the set ups, I was relating their experience which I thought might be of use.
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You haven't seen how much kit these guys take with them Ross
I expect you're coming at it from a lightweight minimalist approach which isn't everyones idea of fun.
LOL! I did notice on few of the trip reports the size of the packs and the (what I considered) a mind blowing amount of gear. Like I said before, to each his own. I would be dead within half a mile if I had to carry or even pull that much weight. I suppose I have to get in better shape.
I hope you are thinking of a different kind of trip or different kind of terrain (if not, I must be a wuss). I don't see how you could take the gear and food you need to be safe in the Arctic for 10-14 days, carry it on your back and stay upright whilst on the move through the snow/Boreal forest. I for one would be in need of an AED within the first two miles
Trust me, you couldn't pay me to carry the amount of gear many of you guys do. I'm a big wuss when it comes to weight. It's just about selecting the right gear. In the picture below you see me with my gear that I would use down to -30 or -40C. A third of the pack is just loosely filled with my down jacket. It can easily fit up to two weeks of food (assuming carefully selected dry food). It's annoying, but very doable, and the only option over most types of terrain. 
The reality is that many, many people backpack in arctic conditions. Just about anyone who does any mountaineering has no other choice for most of each trip. It would have been difficult a few decades ago, but with modern equipment, it is very doable.
By the way, I think in another post someone mentioned that they had problems with sinking in the snow under the weight of their gear. I avoid that by wearing properly rated snowshoes. Current manufacturers offer ratings for how much weight the snowshoe will support. I wear 25 inch snowshoes which offer enough flotation for the above gear. They have larger ones if more flotation is required.
...but I feel like I have detracted from the original question. It was not my intention. Everyone seems interested in this one sentence which wasn't the main point of my post.
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No worries RG.
All opinions are valid. I think maybe others and myself were responding to;
I took 'Any trip' literally.
My point about the pulks floating was innacurate on my part. I meant they need to have the ability to partially fall through a lead in the ice as often happens on pack ice, and not have the contents get soaked. Float is wrong, more a case of limited bouyancy.
For steep mountain work, I couldn't agree more-a lightweight pack is essential.
Have you seen the Crazy carpet sled? Ultra light roll up sled for mountain use?
Crazy carpet in the rockies page here
Ok just to summarise ,
PULK pros ,
easy to pack for flights
due to design works on side slopes
cons,
prone to heavy wear on grit
possable flight problems due to length
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Toboggan pros ,
loads of packing space
fun project to do
can cope with grit on the roads
cons ,
bit of a pain to roll up
bad on side slopes
It seems that both have there good points and bad so theres no outright winner , you pays your money you takes your choice
Ross back in the day when I used to do long distance backpacking my pack was a lot lighter nowadays I tend to set up a base camp and roam put of that .
thanks for your insite into high leval mountainering , ten days food in one hit , impresive .
Shewie , when Im sat in my lavvu with the stove going in the snow I will think of you travaling along in your spandex eating energy gel , enjoy ,,,
Imagedude , I got scoffed at when I mentioned using a orenge survival bag as a pulk, nice one , improvise adapt overcome ( But there bad on side slopes ,,
)
PULK pros ,
easy to pack for flights
due to design works on side slopes
cons,
prone to heavy wear on grit
possable flight problems due to length
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toboggan pros ,
loads of packing space
fun project to do
can cope with grit on the roads
cons ,
bit of a pain to roll up
bad on side slopes
It seems that both have there good points and bad so theres no outright winner , you pays your money you takes your choice
Ross back in the day when I used to do long distance backpacking my pack was a lot lighter nowadays I tend to set up a base camp and roam put of that .
thanks for your insite into high leval mountainering , ten days food in one hit , impresive
.Shewie , when Im sat in my lavvu with the stove going in the snow I will think of you travaling along in your spandex eating energy gel , enjoy ,,,
Imagedude , I got scoffed at when I mentioned using a orenge survival bag as a pulk, nice one , improvise adapt overcome ( But there bad on side slopes ,,
)
I would never use pulk on a gritted road. And if so, when I use a pulk I am on skis, so there would be no need to be on the road at all.
Yep I see you point the main problem we have is getting to the trail head with loads of gear in a far away land sometime you have no choice
Twodogs
Nah, Cliff - you forgot the most important "con"
- pulks look so goddam cool
View attachment 16328View attachment 16329
If all your gear fits inside yep,,
.... and this is the bit that has exercised my mind, and led to my first "wheelie-pulk" using a kiddy sled and wheelie bags, which worked fine as it happens, although I took way too much kit, and the sled might well have fallen apart if the temps had dropped below -20C! Particularly on a solo winter trip, arriving by air and having to traverse trains/buses and the high street/shops provides an almost insurmountable obstacle to a non-wheeled pulk/toboggan. With a group, I suppose you can always get by with having one person looking after the bags etc whilst the others shop for essentials you can't carry by air (fuel), or that it doesn't make sense to carry by air (food etc). You still have the problem of taking a lot of gear - without wheels - from the airport terminal to the eventual snow-trail.
However, with my Fjellpulk, I'm going to have to figure out some way of sorting this out by adding a removable axle/wheels to the pulk. I'm thinking along the lines of lightweight wheels - bigger than the typical suitcase ones (possibly small pushbike ones?). Anyone got any practical ideas (me being a mechanical moron...)?
Cliff, you know there's only one way to do it:
[video=youtube;bmeFTkOkd0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=bmeFTkOkd0M[/video]
[video=youtube;bmeFTkOkd0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=bmeFTkOkd0M[/video]
Yes - canoe trolleys would be a simple fix - typical one with 80kg limit is http://www.amazon.co.uk/GoSea-Extreme-KTB-80-Universal-Trolley/dp/B008XHHR7G/ref=pd_cp_sg_0 Initially I was thinking of something that was transom-mounted like I used to have on my RIB, but these seem a more practical idea considering the underbody-shape of a pulk.
Presumably, with a bit of playing with location of the wheel set to find the CofG, you could haul with the normal poles/harness too!
Presumably, with a bit of playing with location of the wheel set to find the CofG, you could haul with the normal poles/harness too!
