Will I be ok in the Lakes wild with this kit?

[bivvyfox]

Hi, I've been inspired by Ray Mears. I'm planning on a trip to the Lakes or even Scotland in the next month. Is it possible to do it on a budget? I plan to get a 4 Season Sleeping Bag. Also a Rab Survival Zone which costs just £50.

I'm not expecting to be really comfortable, but more an attitude of enjoying taking on the elements in minimal kit. I read advice on Bivvys about the condensation etc, and think I could live with it as long as I am warm enough. I already have a quality lightweight cycling waterproof from polaris. I could use it for hiking. I have cycling bottoms, not waterproof. I have a 35l pack which I heard was possible to backpack in - if I go minimal. I have a couple of thermal vests - one merino wool. Also a fleece that came with a performance coat I bought 15 years ago. My walking boots I am used to walking in, but they are not waterproof. I have the basics like torch compass etc. Anything else you can suggest? My experience level is just camping in camping sites in the summer, although I am pretty fit. I plan to gather water. Food will be oatcakes, and biscuits. I may get a pot to cook in Scotland on a fire, pasta, smash, and cups of tea sound nice. But I am no expert on making fires. Still I could learn. Is it worth me packing a tarp, as Ray Mears suggests? It could keep the rain off me when I am in my Bivvy. Lots of questions, I know. Just wanted your advice, can anyone spot anything I might be doing wrong, don't want to die out there! Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Goose]

There will be lots of advice on kit etc coming from better qualified than me, but my suggestion would be to try it out somewhere local, that way if it doesnt work you can go home get warmed dried and reorged for your next trial.
Might not be so easy in a new location away from home if weather changes in the night.

 

[spamel]

Don't go at it whilst also trying to learn the lot. A knowledge of the basics you would get away with locally during the summer, but coming into the colder times of the year and far away from home could spell disaster.

Mother Nature will find your weaknesses, so try and minimise them by knowing as much as you can. I think everyone here would like to be able to step out of their front door into a large forest with a knife and the clothes they are wearing and be able to live comfortably with whatever nature throws at us, but the reality is probably very different.

I've been to extreme places as a soldier, where I didn't use bushcrafting techniques yet had the kit that an army carries around with it, and it was still tough. When on exercise, a soldier would normally carry three days rations tops, he gets resupplied after that. He also gets water, first aid, shelter and transport provided for him. You will need to provide all of this for yourself.

Now, I don't mean to put you off, but I would like to think that you will sensibly think about your limits, and set yourself a challenge that will see you coming back home safely. Do you really need to travel so far away first time out? If you take more kit then you think necessary, you will learn what you do and don't need for next time, instead of taking a gamble as to what you think you'll need.

Also, sometimes things don't go according to plan. I went camping once, and the weather meant that there weren't any good water supplies to be had. With knowledge I now have, I could possibly have gained water, but it would have been a nightmare still.

To finish on a high, good luck in your choices! An experience will be had wherever you decide to go. Set yourself a task to learn on the trip, friction fire lighting or such like. Practice it so that by the end of the trip, you have got it pretty much sussed, but cheat a bit; take a lighter for those times when it just won't work, there's no shame in it!!

 

[falling rain]

Hello Bivvy fox,

If you're inexperienced as you say then stick to easy treks with plenty of escape routes (easy routes off the hills to villages, farms, dwellings etc) things can turn nasty very quickly for all sorts of reasons and when one thing starts the ball rolling things can get out of control very, very quickly !! Twisted ankle, heavy fog/thunder storms etc. If anyone has ever read 'Deep survival' by Laurence Gonzales they'll know what I mean. To quote a line from that book - 'If you choose to play chess with mother nature, you'd do well to remember she has a habit of un-leashing some stunning moves' make sure your trip is a pleasurable, acheivable experience and not an endurance event. As for kit I'd recommend thinking of the worst possible weather that can be thrown at you and prepare for it when packing kit. Have a dry bag with a complete set of warm dry clothes inside it in case your waterproofs etc fail you. You can pitch your tent/shelter and change into them inside your tent and then get inside your bivvy and sleeping bag
Break the day down into stages and try to visualise a few 'what if' scenarios and make them the worst you can think of and then think if you have the kit and have made a plan (escape routes) to cope with them. I'll stop there because I feel I'm preaching but you did say your experience was summer camping up till now. If you want some more advice I'll be happy to give it.

 

[stoddy]

if you do go!

tell people your routes!

give them exact grid references, and don't deviate from them!

if you go off for 2 weeks alone, you could fall over on the first day!

don't want to sound patronising, but I was in skye for the last 2 weeks, and on the middle saturday an experienced fell runner went missing,he didn't tell his missus his exact route and they have not found him yet!

be safe

Craig

 

[falling rain]

Just remembered one more thing (sorry I teach this stuff for D of E at Air Cadets)
Don't be afraid to call it a day. Even if it means cutting your trip short. Lots of people have got into trouble out on the hills because they've looked forward to a trip for months and saved and spent money to get there, and told friends at work, parents or girlfriends etc about it and they feel ashamed on returning that they didn't complete their planned route, and others take the Mick, or you're peeved off because the weather or other factors have put the mokkers on things so you push on when everything is telling you not to. This is worse when a group of mates go out together because no one wants to be the one who says 'let's cap it here...... things are turning nasty' because they'll be ridiculed back at the pub when the sun starts shining over the mountain/hill they've just come off! They push on and things can sometimes spiral out of control.

Don't mean to be gloomy or patronising but people have died on hills in the UK even in the summer.

Have a great trip and let us know how it went when you get back

 

[Kane]

On top of the safety considerations you want to avoid a bad experience putting you off the bushcrafting lark

Kane

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Maybe try and start off with a more experience partner for the first few time then go solo after some basics are second nature. We believe in elder mentors throughout a young persons life to prepare them for trials ahead. Also you get to meet new interesting peoples with a varied experience background.

 

[Eric_Methven]

If you are thinking of the Lakes, why not come along to the North Meet at the end of the month. There's a bunch of us from here having an informal bushcrafting weekend and it would give you the chance to not only meet some of us, but also pick our brains and check out our kit. All of us there without exception will be happy to give you advice and show you how to do stuff properly and safely.

Eric

 

[bivvyfox]

Genuine advice there, I can tell you are concerned and yet understand my need to get out and be at one with nature.

As Goose and others said, somewhere I know, would be a good idea to try things out first and see how I get on.

And I must tell people my routes, and report back, thanks Craig.

Getting more savvy now.

Falling Rain, who has given lots of great advice, helped give me get an idea when he said ,

“Break the day down into stages and try to visualize a few 'what if' scenarios and make them the worst you can think of and then think if you have the kit and have made a plan (escape routes) to cope with them.”

I wonder how long it would take me to hike up to such a summit in the Lakes, and down again in one day? It seems I need to get at least 500 feet up to find an unused bit of land. Depends on the gradient I guess? Then I could come back to the car, having spent the night wild camping on a fell. Would not be self sufficient for very long, but would still get the solitude, views, and peaceful undisturbed mornings I have been wanting to experience. If I find I feel grubby, beat up, and need to harden up to it more, which is possible with all the enthusiasm in the world; I could leave and get extra supplies from my car, water etc. And know I have gotten tougher for next time. Plus I could camp at a campsite in my tent the next night and have a shower. I could also look out for wild water supplies while up there but would never depend on them. Always enough water to get back to the car. Less food and much more water to carry will be my priority now, just in case, even for just one night under the stars. I can come back to my car and eat, or go to the chippy (I would deserve it, and one step at a time!). I will check the weather each day, and only on good nights will I camp out wild to begin with.

So better to prepare, plan it on the map, choose an easy route with just one path up to the peak perhaps, and make sure I look back to memorise to route I took.

Spamel.

“I went camping once, and the weather meant that there weren't any good water supplies to be had. With knowledge I now have, I could possibly have gained water, but it would have been a nightmare still.”

The Peaks District is nearer for me, about half the mileage, but I hear they do not allow it due to fire risk, especially the High peak where it could set the peat alight, which Ray himself mentioned. Still I wonder, if I was in the white peak, camped down late, out of sight, perhaps in a bit of woodland, and gone first thing in the morning, and never lit a fire, maybe I could get away with it? And return to the car in the morning! I really don’t want to annoy anybody though, or to harm nature etc..

But even so, I still may test it first in the Garden, on a bad rainy night, just to be sure. Take it step by step, people die even the summer as some of you have said, made me think.. If something went wrong I would find it hard to get out in the night. Certainly my plan to go out into the wild for a few days has been wisely put back. My enthusiasm is still there but step by step.

I must get the money to begin with, I am planning on selling a few things on Ebay.

My first step, approaching this forum, has proven way beyond my expectations. I feel part of something, not nature yet, but a community of like minded people out there who feel about it as I do.

 

[Goose]

I dont think it is a case of getting "harder" and putting up with it, it is more to gain the experience,knowledge and kit to make yourself comfortable.

 

[The Joker]

if you do go!

tell people your routes!

give them exact grid references, and don't deviate from them!

if you go off for 2 weeks alone, you could fall over on the first day!



Take a mobile plus spare battery's and ring a designated buddy each day same time, then if your call doesn't come in and they know your routes they can raise the alarm.
I dont want to sound like ya mum but better safe than sorry.
have fun.

pete

 

[arctic hobo]

Since everyone has offered general advice (and very good too) I'll go for more specific kit advice if you don't mind

Hi, I've been inspired by Ray Mears. I'm planning on a trip to the Lakes or even Scotland in the next month. Is it possible to do it on a budget? I plan to get a 4 Season Sleeping Bag. Also a Rab Survival Zone which costs just £50.

The Rab I hear is a good piece of kit - but remember, it only covers you up. Your bag will get wet if it rains, and everything leaks a little if it's partially submerged on wet ground, as you may well be by morning in the Lakes. And there's no space to sit and keep dry, or armholes - if it's pouring in the morning and you want some coffee, you might be a bit chilly waiting for it to boil etc. (incidentally, you don't mention a stove? What sort are you thinking of?). I would also strongly recommend a mini sleep mat, or you will lose a lot of heat into the ground, however thick your sleeping bag.

I'm not expecting to be really comfortable, but more an attitude of enjoying taking on the elements in minimal kit. I read advice on Bivvys about the condensation etc, and think I could live with it as long as I am warm enough.

It's great if you're OK with condensation (though I'd hate it myself! ), but remember, it makes you and your kit wet. Your synthetic sleeping bag may insulate when wet, but will your clothes? Certainly both will be compromised. I'm not trying to discourage you, but of course it's safety first
It's also hard work walking in wet clothes, and they rub a lot, etc etc.

I already have a quality lightweight cycling waterproof from polaris. I could use it for hiking. I have cycling bottoms, not waterproof.

Great, but make sure it really is up to it... trying it in the shower is always good. Waterproof trousers are a really good idea because wet trousers don't just freeze you to the bone, but also make walking very hard work... and depending on what they're made out of, they can really rub your legs.

I have a 35l pack which I heard was possible to backpack in - if I go minimal. I have a couple of thermal vests - one merino wool. Also a fleece that came with a performance coat I bought 15 years ago. My walking boots I am used to walking in, but they are not waterproof.

I'd really suggest you get some Nikwax and waterproof the boots - not only are wet feet very bad for you, but it's miserable. And cold. You will get wet feet just in mud and dewy grass, even before you try any stream crossings. Also, always take spare socks if you do get yours soaked.

I have the basics like torch compass etc. Anything else you can suggest? My experience level is just camping in camping sites in the summer, although I am pretty fit. I plan to gather water. Food will be oatcakes, and biscuits. I may get a pot to cook in Scotland on a fire, pasta, smash, and cups of tea sound nice. But I am no expert on making fires. Still I could learn. Is it worth me packing a tarp, as Ray Mears suggests? It could keep the rain off me when I am in my Bivvy. Lots of questions, I know. Just wanted your advice, can anyone spot anything I might be doing wrong, don't want to die out there! Cheers, Andrew.

Tarp is a great idea. If you get a poncho, it can be both tarp and waterproof jacket/trousers, and they are good kit and very cheap. Though not very fashionable
In the Lakes I'd suggest you purify your water, as not only are there sheep about etc but the area is so well hiked that all sorts of walker-borne nasties might be in the streams. I'm no expert but the likes of E. Coli have me reaching for the iodine. Fires I think will be tricky - even if you're set on this, I'd suggest you take a Jetboil or similar tiny stove. This could save your life at the worst, and at best will save you a lot of effort cutting wood etc. if you're tired. Incidentally, it weighs less than an axe
As everyone has said, try everything somewhere local first. Go in the garden, in the local woods, wherever - but never go straight out into a new area and try new things. I am minded of a story of an SAS captain who was fit as a fiddle, out training in the Beacons, in terrible weather, jogged up a slope, and died about thirty metres after summitting of exposure. You just can't be too careful, accidents happen to everyone - none of use can prepare for everything, but there's no sense in inviting danger by being unprepared and inexperienced.
Now I've finished forecasting gloom, best of luck and have fun!
Chris.

Edit: and always have an emergency ration that doesn't need heat or water

 

[bivvyfox]

If you are thinking of the Lakes, why not come along to the North Meet at the end of the month. There's a bunch of us from here having an informal bushcrafting weekend and it would give you the chance to not only meet some of us, but also pick our brains and check out our kit. All of us there without exception will be happy to give you advice and show you how to do stuff properly and safely.

Eric

Sounds just what I need, I thinking of heading out around that time too.

 

[bivvyfox]

I dont think it is a case of getting "harder" and putting up with it, it is more to gain the experience,knowledge and kit to make yourself comfortable.

Good point. Ray Mears himself says what he likes about it is the ability to learn the skills to cope easily with the environment. All I can afford is the Bivvy bag for winter protection. For me it is important just to get out there. I imagine we all will need to get used to it to begin with, go through that stage? Personally I don’t mind the idea of it being a challenge physically. It’s just like praticsng a skill, Ray says it is hard at first, but persist and you get used to it.

Plus what makes me talk about toughen up and challenge is what I have read from an expert that Bivvy bags can be a hard experience and take some getting used to in our climates.

Richard G from outdoors magic :-

“Finally, you ask about bivvy bags - that could be an article in itself, but the two points you should be aware of are that the closer fitting to the sleeping bag the bivvy bag is, the more effectively it will breathe - if there's an air gap between the two, moisture tends to condense on the inside of the bivvy bag and then drip back onto the sleeping bag. The second other major point is that although bivvy bags work well in cold dry conditions, they're far from ideal in warmer, humid climes and they are vile in the rain. I try not to use them in the UK for those conditions and if you really want to save weight, I'd suggest and ultra-light tent instead for Britain.
Happy bivvying
Richard G”

But I guess it is down to personal preference.

 

[bivvyfox]

Since everyone has offered general advice (and very good too) I'll go for more specific kit advice if you don't mind

The Rab I hear is a good piece of kit - but remember, it only covers you up. Your bag will get wet if it rains, and everything leaks a little if it's partially submerged on wet ground, as you may well be by morning in the Lakes. And there's no space to sit and keep dry, or armholes - if it's pouring in the morning and you want some coffee, you might be a bit chilly waiting for it to boil etc. (incidentally, you don't mention a stove? What sort are you thinking of?). I would also strongly recommend a mini sleep mat, or you will lose a lot of heat into the ground, however thick your sleeping bag.

I've got a sleeping Mat, of the foam type for my tent camping. I will make sure I take it! I may cut it down to 3/4 to save weight.

I was not planning on a stove, but I may change my mind. How cheaply can I get them? It's all down to cost. Plus I have a 35l Ruck Sack, and would have to buy a bigger one if I take too much. I may go without it though, it is not a problem. Just to be out there is what counts to me now.

It's great if you're OK with condensation (though I'd hate it myself! ), but remember, it makes you and your kit wet. Your synthetic sleeping bag may insulate when wet, but will your clothes? Certainly both will be compromised. I'm not trying to discourage you, but of course it's safety first
It's also hard work walking in wet clothes, and they rub a lot, etc etc.

That's it, I'll have to try it first and see if I can get used to it. Don't like the sound of wet clothes though. As long as I am warm is the main thing. I got caught in a big shower on my bike without waterproofs and it chilled me to the bone!

Great, but make sure it really is up to it... trying it in the shower is always good. Waterproof trousers are a really good idea because wet trousers don't just freeze you to the bone, but also make walking very hard work... and depending on what they're made out of, they can really rub your legs.

Good point, I need that or the poncho you suggested too!

I'd really suggest you get some Nikwax and waterproof the boots - not only are wet feet very bad for you, but it's miserable. And cold. You will get wet feet just in mud and dewy grass, even before you try any stream crossings. Also, always take spare socks if you do get yours soaked.

Never heard of that. Thanks for the tip it coudl be really useful. They are no leather though, if that matters?

Tarp is a great idea. If you get a poncho, it can be both tarp and waterproof jacket/trousers, and they are good kit and very cheap. Though not very fashionable

This sounds very interesting! I imagine those in the know will be using them, I heard them mentioned in another thread on here too. All in one? And cheap, amazing! Is there a catch, are they breathable? Although you could just go slow and not sweat so much. And use as a tarp as well? Are they like a big sheet with a hole in for the head? So I could sit down in the woods sheltered by them? Hope I can cover up the hole for the head though?

In the Lakes I'd suggest you purify your water, as not only are there sheep about etc but the area is so well hiked that all sorts of walker-borne nasties might be in the streams. I'm no expert but the likes of E. Coli have me reaching for the iodine. Fires I think will be tricky - even if you're set on this, I'd suggest you take a Jetboil or similar tiny stove. This could save your life at the worst, and at best will save you a lot of effort cutting wood etc. if you're tired. Incidentally, it weighs less than an axe

I did hear that at higher altitudes the fast flowing water is usually ok, and some have done it for years with no ill effects. I'll try to find the link where I read that.

As everyone has said, try everything somewhere local first. Go in the garden, in the local woods, wherever - but never go straight out into a new area and try new things. I am minded of a story of an SAS captain who was fit as a fiddle, out training in the Beacons, in terrible weather, jogged up a slope, and died about thirty metres after summitting of exposure. You just can't be too careful, accidents happen to everyone - none of use can prepare for everything, but there's no sense in inviting danger by being unprepared and inexperienced.

Do you think I could get away with the local woods? I don't think they allow it, but maybe if I am careful and don't cook/fire - leaving everything as it is - and arrive late / go early?

Now I've finished forecasting gloom, best of luck and have fun!
Chris.

Thanks, your advice was very helpful. Cannot wait to start getting out there!!

 

[scanker]

You could make a soda can meths stove - there are instructions linked from this thread.

Alternatively an MSR Pocket Rocket should be less than £30.

There's been a lot of good advice from people with a lot more experience than me - I'm still dipping my toe in the bushcraft water, even though I've lots of camping experience.

Stay local is the bit that stands out for me. We've a new baby and are quite keen to get camping again, so next spring/summer, if it's a fair weekend, we'll be having a go. We'll only be going as far as the Forest of Dean though - I know if the worst comes to the worst, we can be home in an hour with the central heating on! Different scenario, but same principle.

The other thing to do when starting out, is to go for day hikes. Set off early if you like, and aim to cook your own breakfast. Then walk a bit, have lunch, put up a shelter and sit for a couple of hours, perhaps a bit of whittling. Then go home to your nice warm bed. Then when you've built a basis of skills such as shelter building, fire lighting etc - go for a night out in the knowledge that you WILL be able to build a shelter and light a fire if you need to.

 

[lardbloke]

Are you going with anyone else or is this a solo trip??

I would strongly suggest you get out into your local area just for a night to see if you like it. Its alright watching and reading stuff, but when you are far from home, in the cold and wet (it is October) you may hate it.

If you are determined to go, then I would prepare as for camping trip (tent) and take some bushcraft stuff with you, just to experiment with certain bits i.e how to set up a basha/poncho shelter, if you get it wrong you could be spending a cold night out there.

Also get some goretex socks (about 20 quid) so your feet stay dry even though your boots will not.

Above all, just enjoy yourself and dont do to much at once, take in your environment and breath in the nature......

 

[Lurch]

Don't rely on your mobile 'phone to get you out of trouble. Even these days there are a fair number of dead spots in the lakes, even in places where you might expect a signal.

 

[Stuart]

I did hear that at higher altitudes the fast flowing water is usually ok, and some have done it for years with no ill effects. I'll try to find the link where I read that

whilst many do drink from such sources (including myself on occasion) keep in mind that there is no way of knowing if the water is safe regardless of where it is and how clear it looks (think dead sheep up stream) boil all water when ever you can to be safe.