Hi allen just to give a heads up i have been using the 4 man kifaru for years now, and for the family the 8man i would save your pennies and do the kiaru you will never be let down buddy .T he med stove is bettwer suited for all year use,i use it out here in the high mtns of the pyrenees in the snow with temps well below -15.The kifaru web site often has the tipis up for grabs 4,6,8 so log on and watch.laters rob