Upgrading kit - opinions?

[daffy]

Hello everyone

Recently joined, I put up a hello in the appropriate section.

Anyway, I've come back to my previous set up and its seen better days so I think a complete overhaul is required.

Im hoping to encourage discussion on reliable kit suited to 3/4 seasons, without doubling up as much as possible, and would really appreciate some feedback from you all.

First, i'm looking to upgrade my clothing.

I am thinking of going down the wool and ventile route for a few reasons ;

• Breathability
• Resistance to fire
• The ''quietness''
• The natural element

My thoughts so far(Open to change)

Mid Layer Bottom Fjallraven G1000 Trousers Iceland
Base Layer Top Woolpower Ulffrotte Tee 200
Mid Layer Top ? Wool Shirt (robust)
Light Warm Layer Bison Bushcraft Guide Shirt
Heavy Warm Layer Top ?
Waterproof HillTrek Braemar Double Ventile Windshirt (Just how waterproof is double ventile? - no experience)
Thermal Layer Bottom Woolpower Ullfrotte 200g Trousers
Thermal Layer Top Woolpower Ullfrotte 200g Crew Top

I welcome your feedback and personal experiences as does my wallet and morale :You_Rock_

 

[rg598]

It really depends on what you want to do in the clothing. Wool and ventile work well enough in certain circumstances, and very poorly in others. If you plan on carrying your gear on your back for extended distances, the combination wouldn't be my first choice. Also keep in mind that both materials are extremely slow to dry and that ventile is water resistant, not fully waterproof. That may matter depending on your intended use.

 

[mick91]

I stick to pretty much old school stuff and do ok. Good old army green and itchy makes a great top layer under a jacket and a norgie best is my base layer normally. Ventile as rg598 said is water RESISTANT not waterproof. It'll handle showers though. More often than not synthetic fibers have let me down while natural have performed well. Nice long thermal undies are always a good idea too, and rather fetching!

 

[sunndog]

As above, first question to answer is what activities you plan to do?

 

[Tengu]

Yes that is a very good first question.

Whats good in one area might be bad in another.

I have been reading Adam Hart-Davis `What the Victorians did for us`in which he repeats the tired old cliche of learning from the natives in the Arctic.

Though this certainly would have been a good baseline, what a hunter gatherer might need and what an explorer might need may well be two different things.

 

[Tiley]

On the double Ventile question, as has been said, it is not waterproof, just water resistant. When wet, it tends to stiffen up quite a bit and, because the cotton is absorbent, it takes a l-o-n-g time to dry out. If you are going to use it in foul weather, I might be inclined to think again. The Fjallraven G1000 is a pretty good compromise: the poly-cotton mix means that it dries very quickly. You can also wax it to improve its water resistance; this can be quite useful as you can do it selectively, applying more wax on areas that will take the brunt of the weather and wax other areas more lightly so that breathability is not as impaired. That said, if it's dry and cold, Ventile works a treat. Either fabric behaves well if you are near an open fire: the sparks - on the rare occasions when there are some - will make a hole but not melt the fabric.

The Bison Guide shirts are brilliant and, in combination with your other layers, will keep you very warm.

 

[daffy]

Hello everyone,

Thanks very much for the extensive answers loads of experiences there, just what i'm after!

Sorry for the delay and the limited information I hope to build a better picture.The usual commitments have been doubled recently but the end is in sight which means loads of time on here and more importantly out there!!!


mick91 & Tiley

Thats great info, these are exactly the systems I am interested in and have spent a lot of time researching its good to hear some feedback, thanks!

Also, mick I've been reading over your trip reports and challenges. Really great stuff!!!

rg598, sunndog & Tengu

Thanks for trying to answer my question.

I'm splitting all my kit into 3 main categories ; Bushcraft (robust), Mountaineering (lightweight) and...erm...Glamping (Luxurious for when the Mrs comes along- honest!)

In this case I'm talking my Bushcraft kit.

I use Bushcraft to supplement mainly my hill walking and fishing interests, as well as others, however I hope to venture into other activities such as wildlife watching, foraging and canoeing. All of which mean night(s) out wild camping near a fire.

As I live on the West Coast of Scotland and often find myself wandering in exposed and remote areas, as I'm sure you know these are the best , my clothing and kit must be reliable and allow for the loony weather we receive by the hour meaning 4 season pretty much year round. And a lot of rain!

I will upload my up to date spreadsheet. I've been saving my pennies!

I know a lot of this is personal taste but I really appreciate all your feedback, suggestions and criticism.:You_Rock_

ATB Daffy

 

[daffy]

I am aware its not all about the shiny kit but this is my second time around and I'm looking to invest and build up a solid but simple modular inventory allowing me to maximum time outdoors at short notice.

Basic Clothes

Brew & Cook Kit

Cold & Sleepwear

 

[Polecatsteve]

Spreadsheets! I love spreadsheets....but I'm no where near organised enough for that. My moto is "keep it simple stupid"! Mostly because my memory is crap and the more I take or carry the more there is to forget or lose or...cut my self with.

Backpack :-

Cook kit (usually a billy can and steel mug + trangia / triangle)
Knife and a GB wilderness hatchet
Usually a tarp (or tent, banshee 200 if weathers bad and dog with me)**
Fire lighters - varies massively depending on what I plan to do. Always take a fero rod but can also include a zippo etc
Cord - tarred bank line / 20ft of paracord for ridgeline

Sleeping bag and bivi depending again on weather.

Rest is food and drink.

Pack is either my mmps berghaus or a modified ALICE pack.

Done. Few misc items like a book to read etc but usually enjoy campfire TV or the view.

Clothing is a norgie base, m65 jacket liner (fleece pile) very warm, windproof smock with a lightweight "pack jacket" in a pocket for rain.

Light nylon trousers (dry super fast) - or polycotton if it's cooler.
Lowa GTX mountain boots(best boots for west Scottish weather!)

Wooly hat in a pocket for bed time and that's me...

Know more, carry less.

 

[mick91]

Backpack: Andes big loader 120 bought hastily to replace a broken one, perfectly good bag and only £17!
Sleeping: kip bag, hammock, tarp, 100m paracord reel.
Cooking: 1L stainless carabiner bottle, carbiner cup. Piece of a grill, piece of a road iron
Cutting: Gerber bolo (modded), Wilson.
Fire: Ferro rod (cheers paddy!) jute, sulphur matches, charcloth.
Clothing: norgi vest, wooly jumper, dickies redhawk pants, Barbour gamefare (or stockman in really bad weather) Brahma goretex boots. Quite fancy a hat but I don't take one yet.
Misc: wind up radio with a torch built in, catty, small FAK, tissues, soap, flaregun

Although recently my kit seems to consist of bugger all!

 

[Uilleachan]

Ventile as rg598 said is water RESISTANT not waterproof. It'll handle showers though.

Oh I don't know, I've never been wet through in my double ventile and we get 4.5 meters of annual rainfall some years (0.5" per day averaged) in my location, so it has been well tested in much more than showers. The bulk of the inner layer stays dry, cuffs hems and round the neck get wet as they would in any material.

Goretex is good but it's relatively delicate in normal material configurations, but you can climb into your synthetic sleeping bag soaked in your goretex shell and be relatively dry by the morning (providing you're out of the elements), you wouldn't want to have to do that with a wet ventile shell.

As I mention above, 4.5 meters of rain per annum (180"), I'm in one of the wettest place in Europe and this very high rain fall is usually associated with very high winds, we also have the highest wind speeds in Europe too , this means the rain is seldom benignly falling straight down, it's usually driving in hard, the kind of rain that hurst exposed skin and soaks to the skin in seconds if caught out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Scotland

In these circumstances there is no ideal material and a degree of dampness is inevitable no matter which shell road you go down.

If I were to fall into cold water miles from shelter then I'd want to be clad in modern synthetic close fitting kit, goretex shell etc. for the fast drying light weight properties. But if I'm not getting immersed and I only have to deal with dampness then I'll take damp wool over any other fabric as a mid layer, covered in either goretex or ventile.

The single most important consideration when out in the elements is the windproof qualities of the outer layer and both goretex and ventile are excellent in the wind. Warm damp wool works very well if you can keep it covered.

Generally I tend to wear my ventile where there's a chance of snagging or burns, in brush cover making fires, goretex if not, out on open ground, climbing.

Worst case scenario is those days when the rain is horizontal the temperature hovers around +1ºC or +2ºC. the wind driving 50+mph gusting another 15 to 20 mph on top (zombie apocalypse scenario in which one will eventually die if shelter can’t be found) which is the norm in winter here at or close to sea level, you're going to get wet no matter what you wear. When it's like that PVC oilskins are the ticket, if you absolutely need to be out in it.

 

[mick91]

Give me canvas and wax. Like wearing a dry suit!

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[rg598]

I say save your money and combine your bushcraft and mountaineering gear. I fish, hunt, camp, hang out by the fire, backpack, etc in the exact same gear. (Patagonia R1 pullover, Patagonia Nano Pull insulation layer, Arcteryx Beta LT shell, Patagonia DAS Parka belay jacket, Mountain Hardwear pants, Marmot Precip rain pants). Most mountaineering gear is bombproof and sees a lot more stresses than anything we do under the umbrella of "bushcraft" these days.

 

[rg598]

Oh I don't know, I've never been wet through in my double ventile and we get 4.5 meters of annual rainfall some years (0.5" per day averaged) in my location, so it has been well tested in much more than showers. The bulk of the inner layer stays dry, cuffs hems and round the neck get wet as they would in any material.

Goretex is good but it's relatively delicate in normal material configurations, but you can climb into your synthetic sleeping bag soaked in your goretex shell and be relatively dry by the morning (providing you're out of the elements), you wouldn't want to have to do that with a wet ventile shell.

I'm not saying that you couldn't weather a rain storm in a ventile jacket, but ventile is an inherently non-waterproof material. If you stack it thick enough, eventually the rain will not be able to get all the way through in a particular amount of time, but the material itself is not waterproof. It is water resistant.

GoreTex is just a membrane. How strong a GoreTex jacket is depends entirely on what material it is bonded to. There are very flimsy GoreTex jackets and there are extremely robust ones. I'm not sure what the normal configuration is these days. I use the Arcteryx GoreTex jackets and have found them to be extremely tough.

 

[John Fenna]

Oh I don't know, I've never been wet through in my double ventile and we get 4.5 meters of annual rainfall some years (0.5" per day averaged) in my location, so it has been well tested in much more than showers. The bulk of the inner layer stays dry, cuffs hems and round the neck get wet as they would in any material.

Goretex is good but it's relatively delicate in normal material configurations, but you can climb into your synthetic sleeping bag soaked in your goretex shell and be relatively dry by the morning (providing you're out of the elements), you wouldn't want to have to do that with a wet ventile shell.

As I mention above, 4.5 meters of rain per annum (180"), I'm in one of the wettest place in Europe and this very high rain fall is usually associated with very high winds, we also have the highest wind speeds in Europe too , this means the rain is seldom benignly falling straight down, it's usually driving in hard, the kind of rain that hurst exposed skin and soaks to the skin in seconds if caught out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Scotland

In these circumstances there is no ideal material and a degree of dampness is inevitable no matter which shell road you go down.

If I were to fall into cold water miles from shelter then I'd want to be clad in modern synthetic close fitting kit, goretex shell etc. for the fast drying light weight properties. But if I'm not getting immersed and I only have to deal with dampness then I'll take damp wool over any other fabric as a mid layer, covered in either goretex or ventile.

The single most important consideration when out in the elements is the windproof qualities of the outer layer and both goretex and ventile are excellent in the wind. Warm damp wool works very well if you can keep it covered.

Generally I tend to wear my ventile where there's a chance of snagging or burns, in brush cover making fires, goretex if not, out on open ground, climbing.

Worst case scenario is those days when the rain is horizontal the temperature hovers around +1ºC or +2ºC. the wind driving 50+mph gusting another 15 to 20 mph on top (zombie apocalypse scenario in which one will eventually die if shelter can’t be found) which is the norm in winter here at or close to sea level, you're going to get wet no matter what you wear. When it's like that PVC oilskins are the ticket, if you absolutely need to be out in it.

Falling into cold water? Ventile was developed for immersion suits for Arctic convoy pilots....
My all round favorite waterproof combo is Ventile over wool - I also like waxed cotton over wool ... I dislike noisy synthetics though

 

[Uilleachan]

I'm not saying that you couldn't weather a rain storm in a ventile jacket, but ventile is an inherently non-waterproof material. If you stack it thick enough, eventually the rain will not be able to get all the way through in a particular amount of time, but the material itself is not waterproof. It is water resistant.

GoreTex is just a membrane. How strong a GoreTex jacket is depends entirely on what material it is bonded to. There are very flimsy GoreTex jackets and there are extremely robust ones. I'm not sure what the normal configuration is these days. I use the Arcteryx GoreTex jackets and have found them to be extremely tough.

Whilst I agree with the above, in my experience double ventile (provided you are alive and thus generating body heat) is only required in a double configuration to be effective. To become water resistant the material needs to become saturated and swollen, but once so water doesn't pass readily and as I mention above I've more than put my garment to the test and found it effective in keeping me more or less dry.

Falling into cold water? Ventile was developed for immersion suits for Arctic convoy pilots....
My all round favorite waterproof combo is Ventile over wool - I also like waxed cotton over wool ... I dislike noisy synthetics though

Apples and oranges John.

When a pilot ditches he needs to be able to hang on until recovered. Out on a hill far from shelter, if one becomes immersed, one has to recover ones self and then walk out. Whilst I'm a ventile wool combo fan, if I was taking an unplanned swim and had a way to walk 10miles or so, I'd rather be clad in modern close fitting synthetic garb.

 

[John Fenna]

I guess it all depends on what you are doing and the risks you are facing during your activity.
I no longer go mountaineering or long distance walking (the state of my knees limits me to a max of about 7 miles.
For my version of Bushcraft I tend to be in the trees with my shelter with me, around fires and playing with sharps. A little foraging in thorn and briar, a little nature watching/stalking and a fair bit of carrying wood around all come into my Bushcraft - and I have found Ventile more than enough to cope with these activities without need of fragile, failure prone and noisy synthetics. Only once or twice in the past several years have I had to top off my Ventile with a battered old MOD poncho which I carry as (mainly) part of my shelter system. Ventile, wool, canvas and waxed cotton have all - in various combos - proved more effective for my needs.
I am not a fair weather camper - I am out in all weathers - but neither am I worried about being a little damp around the edges: I know how to stay warm and comfortable in bad weather without resorting to wearing to (what I find to be) uncomfortable, noisy and inappropriate to task synthetics.
But that is me and my preferences for the version of Bushcraft that I do.... others may differ

 

[WoodGnome]

From what you've said so far it looks as if you're up to putting quite some money in...

I'd probably stay away from the wind shirt and some other things and get one of these swedish loden anoraks. They're quite expensive, but cover everything. They're breathable, waterproof, warm, windproof and can be combined with regular clothing to withstand even arctic conditions.

I can only find a German seller at the moment, but here it is:

http://www.jagdfieber.com/Bekleidung/Jagdanorak/Jagdanorak-Militaer-Loden-Made-in-Sweden-L.html

Can't get any better quality. Costs about 340 € though. Saves you the wind shirt, the wool crew top and a heavy warm top. You just take that thing as outer layer. If it's warmer, you just have a normal t-shirt underneath. No need for hi-tec with that thing. If it's losing water resistance, you just rub it with lanolin (wool fat) cause it consists of wool to 100% (80% pure new wool, 20% Rayon wool).

 

[Chiseller]

WoodGnome .....your a bad person.....i really didnt need to see that jacket.....wardrobe clear out time ????

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[WoodGnome]

WoodGnome .....your a bad person.....i really didnt need to see that jacket.....wardrobe clear out time ????

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You're welcome . They have even more cool stuff. The maker is in Sweden and is called Micklagård. They're producing custom wool clothing, well, we call that "Loden" in Germany which is fulled felt in high density. Really great stuff, but there's a lot of handwork involved so it's pricey. Holds more than a lifetime though. The full outer hunting outfit they offer is: anorak, vest, cargo trousers, gaiters and a long cape - they also have a jacket as an alternative... However, getting all of it will make you a poor man (which is why I'm still saving for the anorak ).