UK Knife Law change?

[Minotaur]

I may have missed the post however did people know the UK knife law has changed a little bit in that the length of blade is now the total length of blade and not just the sharp bit?
Just double checked my Rough Rider Canoe which is the first of my Nessmuk set and it 3 inches under the new law so thankfully legal.

 

[Pattree]

I can still carry one of my bigger knives in my rucksack with the rest of my camping gear.

 

[Minotaur]

I can still carry one of my bigger knives in my rucksack with the rest of my camping gear.

That still requires the good reason exemption to cover it. This is a change to the 3" non-locking knife rule.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Do you have the link to the legislation?

 

[Decacraft]

I'm sure blackbelt barrister covered this on YouTube along with a few others- although in the legislation it states (or used to state) the cutting edge less than 3 inch, its always been measured as the full blade from hande to tip to prevent someone carrying a larger blade with a small section sharpened. Or at least someone was prosecuted quite a while back with it.

 

[Minotaur]

I was looking for the thing about taking the ring off an Opinel not making it UK legal and saw BlackBelt Barristers new Knife videos.
It is like the locking knife decision a Judge made it in Charles Brooker vs the Director of Public Prosecutions case.

 

[Chris]

I think my Boker Plus XS is now too close for comfort. Perhaps even half a mm over. Shame, as it is my favourite work-horse for EDC. Perhaps I can get it ground down a bit without ruining it.

I suppose when you think of the type of injuries the law is trying to stop, it is the “stabbing” length that is mechanically relevant rather than the cutting edge. Once the sharp/slicey bit pierces skin, the rest of the metal will just follow it in, the cutting edge itself is largely irrelevant.

I don’t agree with how strict our knife laws are just to be clear, but looking at it pragmatically given their supposed goal, this seems to make more logical sense.

 

[Pattree]

As I can still buy an Opinel 12 120mm locking knife legally in the UK I shall continue to use mine.

 

[Stew]

As I can still buy an Opinel 12 120mm locking knife legally in the UK I shall continue to use mine.

He’s talking about slipjoints,not locking knives.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Okay folks, I have done a little more digging on this.

Without citing verifiable case law, or linking to the .gov legislation, all this stuff about knife law change is, to paraphrase a quote from someone on EdgeMatters just, "Stating as fact something they may have heard mentioned by some bloke on Youtube who said a copper told his mates dads dogwalker".

That isn't good.

https://edgematters.uk/thread/42229-misinformation-about-new-case-law-2023-regarding-uk-edc-legal-slip-joints/?pageNo=1

This legal stuff is important but there has been much confusion over the years because people post their own impressions or merely post what they say they have heard or think they heard. It is crucial to cite sources.

For clarity of what is being discussed:
In 2019 I posted about blade length measurement methods on a thread about the Viper Key

https://edgematters.uk/thread/29451-viper-key/?postID=269758#post269758

“A = 3 3/16 or 3.1875" or 81mm
B = 3 1/32 or 3.03125 or 77mm
C = 3.00 76.2mm (in this case, distance from tip to heel is same as shown)

While the law says "cutting edge" I see a lot of people measuring blade length (A) and I would expect to have a harder time explaining this to any police I meet than I would like to.”

Hepotec, who works within the courts wrote this on that thread.

My understanding is that it is the cutting edge that is measured. The Law tends to be pedantic and very measured. If it says cutting edge, it would take divine intervention to change it to whole blade length. And it clearly says cutting edge.

That is the sharp bit. But there is also an element of pragmatism involved. It isn't sensible to carry a six inch vaquero, that only had the last three inches sharpened. I suspect the charge would be varied to an Off Weap charge, or similar. Whilst the Law is literal, those interpreting it are quite canny.

Practically, I suspect a copper who measures an entire blade may take exception and take you to the station. The desk sergeant would probably sort it quickly and send you on your way. If not, it still has to pass through the CPS before it gets near a Bench.

There's several bites at this particular cherry before a potential criminal conviction.

But I understand the desire for a belt and braces approach. That needs to be balanced with how likely you are to be questioned and how you react.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I have found the videos cited in the Edge Matters thread and they are anecdotal at best and do not constitute evidence of a change in law.

So, until someone can provide a link to a .gov law change, or link to case law, lets not panic and lets leave both defiance and angle grinders in their boxes.

 

[Nice65]

I think my Boker Plus XS is now too close for comfort. Perhaps even half a mm over. Shame, as it is my favourite work-horse for EDC. Perhaps I can get it ground down a bit without ruining it.

I suppose when you think of the type of injuries the law is trying to stop, it is the “stabbing” length that is mechanically relevant rather than the cutting edge. Once the sharp/slicey bit pierces skin, the rest of the metal will just follow it in, the cutting edge itself is largely irrelevant.

I don’t agree with how strict our knife laws are just to be clear, but looking at it pragmatically given their supposed goal, this seems to make more logical sense.

I haven’t seen a single bit of evidence to suggest this is a change in the law. The OP has said he got the information from YouTube, admittedly a reliable YouTuber. This doesn’t make it law, nor does any precedent set in court.

@Kiri is the man to ask, he is our source of correct legal information.

 

[JonathanD]

After viewing this thread I’ve also looked for the change in law. I can’t find anything substantial anywhere apart from gossip.

 

[Minotaur]

The law is Criminal Justice Act 1988 which says:
139 - Offence of having article with blade or point in public place. E+W
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this
section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade
or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds
3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove
that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public
place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for
a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article
with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
The case law is charles broker vs dpp 2005 for blade length.
The locking knife case law is Harris v Director of Public Prosecutions; Fehmi v Director of Public Prosecutions: QBD 9 Sep 1992.

The Gov.org website says this:
It’s also illegal to:

• carry most knives or any weapons in public without a ‘good reason’
• sell most knives or any weapons to anyone under the age of 18

The exception to these 2 rules are folding pocketknives that:

• have a cutting edge no longer than 3 inches
• are not lock knives (they do not have a button, spring or catch that you have to use to fold the knife)

The Suffolk Police say this:

Is it illegal to carry a knife?​

It is illegal to carry any sharply pointed or bladed article in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62cm or 3 inches).

A lock knife is NOT a folding pocketknife and therefore it is illegal to carry these knives regardless of the length of the blade.

Possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse IS an offence.

Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade / pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument that may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener).

The West Midlands Police say this:
In England, it is illegal to:

• Sell a knife to anyone under 18, unless it is a knife with a folding blade that is three inches long or less
• Carry a knife in public without good reason, unless it is a knife with a folding blade that is three inches long or less
• Carry, buy or sell any banned knife

Man I am glad I am not a lawyer that was hard work.

 

[JonathanD]

I don’t see anything that has changed in that. Still specifies cutting edge. Unless I’m missing something.

 

[Minotaur]

The Judge said in charles broker vs dpp 2005 that a knife blade does not have to be sharp to be a knife blade under the law.
You will see that both Police forces say Blade and not cutting edge as per the law.

 

[JonathanD]

I understand that. But the written law hasn’t actually been changed or updated to reflect that. None that I can find at least.

 

[Minotaur]

I understand that. But the written law hasn’t actually been changed or updated to reflect that. None that I can find at least.

You may have the term precedents in US legal dramas well that is case law in the UK so there is a written law and then judges get involved.
There is a case Regina v Deegan: CACD 4 Feb 1998 were the judgement in Harris v Director of Public Prosecutions; Fehmi v Director of Public Prosecutions: QBD 9 Sep 1992 is used to prosecute and then the appeal was deigned quoting same.

 

[JonathanD]

I just checked my UKPK which is the only knife I EDC, so that’s safe either way, so I’m happy.

 

[Minotaur]

That Gear Guy in his video on this uses the BOKER Plus XS as an example of one caught in the change which Hennie are still advertising as UK Legal...
I think the UKPK was designed with the help of British Blades so there would have been Lawyers involved however you might want to check out That Gear Guy taking about his recent Customs experience because one-handed openers are now on the radar apparently.