Turboflame Lighter (Lakeland Bushcraft)

[Fin]

Ok I drank a little deeper (I cannot believe I've been googling dynamic equilibrium and equilibrium vapour pressure - I really must get out more ) - and I now agree that Boyle's law is a poor explanation for what is going on - thank you Ged and Mr Adoby for putting me right on that score - although no thanks at all for the hour of my life that I'll never get back .

I still wanted to find out why there is an apparent loss of pressure as the lighter gradually empties - dynamic equilibrium should determine that the pressure in the reservoir remains constant (at constant temperatures). I think the answer lies in Ged's views of approximation and ideal conditions and dynamic vapour pressure.

My theory - and I wait to be corrected on this (I'm a pilot, not a physicist) - is that every time you use the lighter you are contaminating the butane with air which will effect the dynamic vapour pressure of the butane. This is why it is important to completely purge the lighter prior to filling - you're not purging the residual butane - you're purging it of air so that, when you fill the lighter, your starting from as pure a butane base as possible.

Anyway - my head is about to spontaneously combust - so I'm off for a late lunch amongst some trees!

 

[ged]

...I cannot believe I've been googling dynamic equilibrium and equilibrium vapour pressure...

Well my hat is off to you for that.

...no thanks at all for the hour of my life that I'll never get back...

And then you die.

I still wanted to find out why there is an apparent loss of pressure as the lighter gradually empties ... My theory ... is that every time you use the lighter you are contaminating the butane with air...

It seems to me unlikely that air could get in because the butane is under a gauge pressure of about an atmosphere at room temperature, but I've no evidence to offer. I suppose that theoretically the gas could cool so rapidly as it expands and tries to escape the lighter at high speed (Bernoulli) that its pressure drops enough to let some air in. Perhaps that could explain why my first Turboflame sometimes seemed almost to blow itself out.

For sure something odd is going on (and to me it looks like it goes on more with some designs than with others) but I think we might be agreed that we don't yet know exactly what it is.

 

[Fin]

It seems to me unlikely that air could get in because the butane is under a gauge pressure of about an atmosphere at room temperature, but I've no evidence to offer. I suppose that theoretically the gas could cool so rapidly as it expands and tries to escape the lighter at high speed (Bernoulli) that its pressure drops enough to let some air in. Perhaps that could explain why my first Turboflame sometimes seemed almost to blow itself out.

Yep! That makes sense - (Bernoulli being related to the venturi effect with regards to the speed/ pressure relationship - something I do know about and am regularly tested on as part of my job). That was an interesting remark about your lighter seeming to blow itself out. One advantage with the PB-10 is that it is easy to adjust the output. In place of the fiddly recessed screw there's a knurled ring which forms the flat base. Sometimes when the lighter is cold, I'll increase the output to get a flame (especially when it's low on gas). If the lighter is then relatively warmed (by being in my pocket for example) I find the output too strong to sustain a flame (like you said - it seems to blow itself out) so I have to turn it back down again.

For sure something odd is going on (and to me it looks like it goes on more with some designs than with others) but I think we might be agreed that we don't yet know exactly what it is.

Agreed! and nicely put! I think these things are very pressure sensitive and you've hit the nail on the head with the question of design. I don't know exactly what's going on - all I can say is that the PB-10, combined with the fill methods previously quoted - have given me, so far, a consistency in performance that has hither to been lacking with previous models.

 

[razors]

Dont know much about physics, but I know that the primus lighter I had died on Me last week due to the ignition failing,The only good thing about the lighter was the adaptor it came with allowing a refill from a camping stove canister. My next turbo flame style lighter will be a windmill delta from Heinnies expensive at about £40 but these turbo type lighters are great for starting fires with slightly damp material. I think that these lighters may not suit smokers as well as a clipper as they dont seem to like lots of small lights but handle the longer occasional burns well. I cant find a windmill cheaper than HH, which I have to admit is a surprise, and they arent stocked everywhere but all Ive heard about them is good. Oh and they dont give you boils!!

 

[Paul_B]

I might sound a bit stupid here but if an ordinary lighter lights stoves and the like (and so far mine always has) what advantage is the turbo lighters? Are they worth the several quid they cost?

 

[ged]

I might sound a bit stupid here but if an ordinary lighter lights stoves and the like (and so far mine always has) what advantage is the turbo lighters? Are they worth the several quid they cost?

My sailing buddy and I always remind ourselves to ask stupid questions when we set off anywhere. Better to ask as question that has an easy answer than to spot something that might get you killed and not say anything about it.

You're right, almost any lighter can light almost anything most of the time, but there are at least four advantages to the turbo style lighters that I can think of.

1. The flame can point straight down.
2. The flame is hotter.
3. The flame is less sooty.
4. The flame is more resistant to wind.

Apart from the cost the one major disadvantage that I've experienced is that most of mine haven't worked most of the time. Having said that I've only tried three different types so I'm still very much a beginner with these things.

The cheapest turbo style lighter I've seen is 99p (mentioned earlier in this thread) and it's a little gem. The strange thing is that since I bought that one, my (third) Turboflame brand lighter has been working perfectly. :aargh4: See my next post in this thread.

 

[ged]

... I think these things are very pressure sensitive ...

Oooooh!! You may be onto something there!

As I posted earlier, a couple of days ago SWMBO bought me a 99 pence "Bull Brand" turbo-style lighter, a cheap Chinese import place from a smaller outlet in Derbyshire. It's been totally reliable and has worked well in some atrocious conditions which just happened to coincide with getting it.

The most curious thing is that since I got the cheapo lighter, the "Turboflame Original" (my third Turboflame brand lighter and so far the only one that's show any real sign of working properly) has started to work a lot better. Now this is either because I spoke very sternly to it (I told it that it was going back to the shop for a refund), or it's just jealous of the one that cost one-ninth of the price and works better, or it's something else.

So what comes along with bad weather? Low atmospheric pressure. So the gas doesn't have to work so hard to get out!

The barometer has been hovering around 1010 millibars for a while, but then it sank like a stone to the low 990s for a few days. That's only a couple of percent in pressure terms but as a professional pilot will know a lot better than I it's several hundred feet in altitude terms. Some turboflame style lighters even have an altitude adjustment.

This may or may not have anything to do with it but as clutchable straws go it's the best I've come up with for a while. I think I'm going to start looking for a barograph again now. Unfortunately last time I found one it was nearly a grand.

 

[Fin]

The barometer has been hovering around 1010 millibars for a while, but then it sank like a stone to the low 990s for a few days. That's only a couple of percent in pressure terms but as a professional pilot will know a lot better than I it's several hundred feet in altitude terms. Some turboflame style lighters even have an altitude adjustment.

Aaaah! - now that's something I hadn't considered - you're right - it's 30' per millibar - i.e a difference of 600' between 1010mb and 990mb.
It would be interesting to know the optimal output pressure of these things and wether they are based on an atmospheric pressure of 1013mb (standard ICAO pressure).

 

[chrissherwood]

If I can add my 2 penny worth...

I have used a Blue Flame Lighter for around 10 years with few problems;

The only problem I have had was having to clean and realign the spark electrode with a knife blade.

It looks similar to what is sold here;

http://www.hill.u-net.com/

 

[Paul_B]

So, which one to get if not a smoker, a meths burner and a gas burner when backpacking. Also an infrequent burner of anything. Whick one to get and from where?

 

[ged]

So, which one to get if not a smoker, a meths burner and a gas burner when backpacking. Also an infrequent burner of anything. Whick one to get and from where?

Without a doubt I would recommend one of the DX ones that have been linked to here. I haven't used mine in difficult conditions yet but I've been leaving a selection of lighters outside in the (open) porch to test them side by side. Yesterday it was down to 8 degrees C (and up to 1020 millibars) here, the Turboflame was struggling again but did eventually light when it got to about 10 degrees. The one I got from DX didn't seem to have noticed it was outside and worked reliably every time although I will just say that it seems to light only on the second attempt most times after it's been unused for a while. The 99 pence one from Amber Value worked well although the flame was somewhat reduced from its usual size at room temperature.

The Turboflame was all right again this morning but it was 15C when I tried it, I was surprised by the difference in temperature from yesterday morning. I'll keep some notes and post a bit more when I can.

One good thing about these lighters when using a meths burner is that when it's cold you can easily make a hot spot on the burner so that the fuel vaporizes where it touches it, and so it lights easily. Having said that it isn't usually very difficult to light a meths burner.

The Turboflame brand instructions talk about using special extra refined gas (which I got from Yeoman Outdoors when I got my first Turboflame lighter) or risking damage to the burner. I haven't seen that with any other brand. Depending on what brand you get and where it isn't what I'd call expensive, but it's something to think about.

 

[ged]

If I can add my 2 penny worth...

I have used a Blue Flame Lighter for around 10 years with few problems

Welcome!

That lighter is very similar to the "Turboflame Original" but I guess it was a bit more expensive, yes? Have you used it much in cold weather and if so how does it perform?

 

[chrissherwood]

Welcome!

That lighter is very similar to the "Turboflame Original" but I guess it was a bit more expensive, yes? Have you used it much in cold weather and if so how does it perform?

No, it has had little use in cold weather, I am a fair weather camper. The only problem beside the electrode was filling it until I found the right gas nozzle.

I am going up Snowdon tomorrow so I will try it at the top!

 

[urban ninja]

Green 'Summer' gas for airsoft pistols works well in my lighter.The gas is propane,usually with lubricant added.It is sometimes noisy but gives a good flame.

 

[ged]

Green 'Summer' gas for airsoft pistols works well in my lighter.The gas is propane,usually with lubricant added.It is sometimes noisy but gives a good flame.

Oh, gosh, please don't do that, it's dangerous.

At room temperature, the pressure in a liquid butane-filled lighter will be about one atmosphere, something like 15psi. At the same temperature, filled with liquid propane, the pressure will be well over 100psi. The lighter probably has a maximum pressure rating for butane at 60 degrees Celsius which is less than the pressure you have in your lighter now. If your lighter gets hot (say in the car on a sunny day) you could have an unexploded bomb on your hands.

 

[chrissherwood]

I am going up Snowdon tomorrow so I will try it at the top!

The lighter didn't work at the top, I thought it was the igniiter as I could hear gas escaping but back at home it works fine.

 

[ged]

The lighter didn't work at the top, I thought it was the igniiter as I could hear gas escaping but back at home it works fine.

Sounds just like my Turboflame(s). My latest one is now doing pretty much what all the others have done although admittedly it seems better than they were. I've been keeping it outside, together with half a dozen other butane lighters, near the porch thermometer. First thing every morning I've been (trying to) light it. None of the other lighters has had any problem. The Turboflame isn't too difficult to light, but it won't stay lit at anything under about 13 degrees Celsius. It just about works at 15 degrees but below that the flame goes out quite quickly after lighting it. Sometimes it will light fairly easily, sometimes not. At nine or ten degrees it's practically useless. I have the impression that something in the burner is being cooled down by the evaporating gas and the heat from the flame isn't reaching it quickly enough to prevent the flame from being extinguished because the burner is too cold.

The atmospheric pressure has been in the high 1020s all week so I can't say it the Turboflame won't be better at lower pressures, but I too can always hear gas escaping when the flame has gone out. If you were on top of Snowdon I don't think the pressure would have been too high.

This time I've really had it with Turboflame.

 

[Spikey DaPikey]

i've got the DX one, and never had any problems with it. For the price, its great

 

[urban ninja]

Airsoft Green gas is propane with a lubricant added to preserve seals and o rings.