Toxic Metal Utensils?

[oldtimer]

My racing spoon is normally wood. However, they don't last long for one reason or another and after my last one split along the grain across the bowl. I decided to go back to using an old EPNS spoon that lived in my pack years ago. From research, it is apparently a Victorian or Edwardian fruit spoon and is the ideal shape and size for the purpose I use it for. I also have an irrational attachment to it finding it a pleasant touch of civilisation in the wild because of its aesthetic qualities. It has long ago lost its silver plating and was a bit smelly and left a bit of a metallic taste on the food at first, but after I cleaned what I thought was mere discolouration or patina, It solved the problem of taste.

I decided to do a bit of research on EPNS on Wikipedia and was a bit disturbed to find a reference to possible toxicity when copper, which I understand to be part of the alloy used for the base metal, leaches out when used for some foodstuffs. What I assumed to be patina had a greenish tinge which I associate with copper.

Knowing the extent of collective wisdom available here, I now seek advice on this. Do I need to worry about poisoning myself or am I worrying unnecessarily?

It also occurred to me ask at the same time for any advice on my regular use of pewter utensils for drinking wine and beer when I am at home. Is this a safe practice?

I think the old debate about aluminium causing Altzeimer's has been laid to rest. I hope so as I still use an aluminium Trangia pot because of its lightness, and as a child, everything my parents cooked was in aluminium. But someone out there may know better.

 

[Broch]

There was a great argument (on this forum? I can't remember) about using holly for a spoon and how it will 'poison' you - poppycock! Holly has been used for spoons for millennia in this part of the world. Yes, it contains toxic chemicals but, by the time it's been steeped, washed and dried you'd have to chew on it all day to get any significant amount inside you (maybe not even then).

I suspect (but acknowledge I don't know) the same is true of your spoon. If you licked it continuously for the rest of you life how much copper would you actually remove compared to any dissolved in the copper pipes of the drinking water supply?

Lead in pewter I would be slightly more worried about if I was drinking steaming hot drinks out of it but I also use Pewter for wine and beer occasionally (not regularly I admit) without a care - again, realistically, how much is dissolved in the liquid? There are pewter tankards (with greater lead content) from the middle ages that show no signs of loss of material that were used every day for decades.

Water will kill you if you drink a gallon of it in one go; everything in moderation

 

[Janne]

I would not worry about any potential toxicity.
The dissolved amounts are tiny.

Said that, I would get another spoon, if you get a metallic taste.

 

[Toddy]

If the spoon tastes metallic, give it a good clean, and polish it dry.

Old 'brass' jelly pans (maslin pans) slowly leached tiny amounts of copper out into the acidic fruit while it was cooking. It actually acted as a long term preservative in the jams and jellies because of that tiny amount of copper. It discourages mould growth.

We need 'some' copper, but we don't need a lot.

Knowing I was going to be doing an awful lot of natural dyeing for a big project, I contacted the local sewage works and asked about the disposal of the mordants.
The man there said, "Ah, you want Johnny. Hang on and I'll see if I can get hold of him", and in due course Johnny came on the phone, and I started to explain. The long shot was that he came by and I put the kettle on and we sat and blethered. He was the fellow responsible for the quality of the water coming out of the sewage works in the area.

I explained that there were five major mordants used by natural dyers.
Iron, Copper, Alum, Tin, Chrome.

It's a long story so I'll cut it short and say this about each, but all are or were used in cutlery and the like.

Alum....he had no problems with alum. He said it was used in the water treatment of the potable water supplies, was used to help flocculate the peat particles before they hit the screens (our water comes from the Daer Reservoir up on the Lanarkshire moors) and some leaches into the potable water and causes no harm or problems.

Iron....he laughed, and said, "Half the women in the country take iron tablets and you lot excrete most of that. The sewage system is set up to deal with it, don't pour loads of raw mordant down the drain, and it won't be a problem".

Copper....slightly more problematic. Copper in concentration is toxic, but it's used in central heating pipes, plumbing, etc., and some ends up in the sewage system. Again, they're set up to deal with it, just be careful to use the mordant bath to exhaustion before disposal and it'll be fine.

Tin....that caused him concern. Tin forms organometallic compounds that are persistent in the environment and are toxic. (Roman mine workings are still toxic nearly two thousand years later) Tin gives a sharp brightness to natural dyes, bright oranges and reds, I manage very well indeed without poisoning the world, so I don't use tin.
Johnny was horrified that it's sold by the kg to natural dyers

Chrome....that I could buy chrome for 'natural' dyeing let him almost speechless. Chrome is horrendously toxic. It causes feminization of the invertebrates at the bottom end of the food chain, and it's persistent in water environments. It is so contra-indicated that anyone who uses is cannot be called a 'natural' dyer, but ought to be called an ecological vandal/mengele.
So, I most definitely do not use chrome, and I don't really want chrome around me otherwise if I can avoid it....and that includes in my cutlery.

Anyway, back to copper; in tiny quantities it's okay, just mind that acidic foods will leach it out into your diet.

M

 

[MrEd]

I drink outnof a pewter beer tankard, I have 2 - one is very old and is leaded so I don’t use that anymore but the other is newer and less free so that gets the use.

I wouldn’t use your spoon for the simple reason of taste. Have you tried a jewellers to see if they could plate it maybe?

 

[Janne]

Forgot to mention that yes, the rumour that Aluminium and Aluminium alloys cause Alzheimer's has been firmly debunked.

Personally I would just throw it away and use a s/s spoon. Waste of money to try to plate it and so on.
If you want class, find a nice Vintage Sterling Silver spoon, they are cheap.

 

[Broch]

You've got no soul Janne

 

[Janne]

Yes I have.
It is very, very black though......

 

[Janne]

I just buggered up the inside plating of the heating elements on my espresso machine......
Plating comes off through the porta as tiny little flakes.

Now that is a pita problem!

Plating anything today is hopeless, they can not use the old, toxic methods.
Plating a spoon with an unknown alloy might work, but also might not.

Also, Silver is good. In case you get attacked by a vampire,, just stab him with the spoon and that will finish him off and save you!

 

[Broch]

Also, Silver is good. In case you get attacked by a vampire,, just stab him with the spoon and that will finish him off and save you!

Silver is for weirwolves, wood is for vampires

 

[Janne]

No. Silver kills Vampires too.
It burns them.
Sunlight, beheading, stake through heart, silver.

Not sure about Warewolves.
We do have those in my family tree!
( I think, not sure about Mother sometimes....)

 

[Kepis]

dose by Mark Emery, on Flickr

 

[oldtimer]

Silver is for weirwolves, wood is for vampires

To avoid having to carry two spoons I clearly need a silver spoon with a sharpened wooden handle. Always good practice to carry a tool with more than one function!

 

[Erbswurst]

If you use that spoon so often, that it stays blank, it shouldn't be a problem.

If it becomes green, it becomes toxic.

To restore it with a new silver plaiting will cost perhaps 30€, I guess. That is an option, if you love your spoon.

A single historic silver plated spoon in perfect conditions you can get every where for 3 to 5 €.

A used high quality inox spoon costs the same. The normal ones are cheaper and lighter.

Inox spoon and titanium spoon have nearly the same weight if they have the same size.

The foldable Esbit titanium spoon is the largest I found, every other titanium outdoor spoon I know has the size of a tea spoon. Of course they are lighter than a normal inox spoon...

I own the foldable Esbit spoon.
I find it very well.

Should you not know the weight of every piece of your equipment, because you throw everything on the digital kitchen scale, you don't need a titanium spoon.

With the same investment you can save weight at other pieces of your equipment far easier.

To buy a titanium spoon, instead of using an old inox spoon means to throw money out of the window.

I did it. But I carry my full rucksack every day, and I optimised before every other item.

The spoon was the last piece of ultra light equipment I bought, because here I payed 15€ to save 20 g.
That's obviously idiotic.

But I did it.

I want the lightest good quality equipment I can buy.

(And I have the money for jokes like that.)

What do I recommend to every body?

An INOX spoon from the flea market: Strong, light and cheap, the best deal you can make!

 

[Broch]

This is the Bushcraft UK forum; it's stainless steel here

 

[Janne]

I have a very exclusive spoon myself. Stole it in the only Autobahn restaurant in East Germany.
Made from a very interesting Aluminium alloy.
Feels like aircraft alloy.

 

[Robson Valley]

I can easily afford to lose any and all of my camping cutlery, folding knives included.
Nobody gives a damn what my spoon is made of, and I expect to have several in the kit.
Grab a handful out of the back of the kitchen cutlery drawer (behind the good chopsticks) and we go.

Lots of fresh water plumbing is copper as humans need a little as an essential element in the diet.
Some whole countries got their knickers in a twist about lead soldering joints.
So it was plumber's heaven to rip it all out and use silver solder at greater expense all around.

You all survived the Chalcolithic as British tin began to power the Bronze Age.
I made copper tools ( an adze and a knife = useless)

 

[Erbswurst]

Does anybody use a granite spoon?

Surely not the lightest but perhaps a durable option.

I use a granitic pillow since 45 years.

It is a bit heavy in the rucksack and relatively uncomfortable, but looks like brand new!

 

[oldtimer]

I have a very exclusive spoon myself. Stole it in the only Autobahn restaurant in East Germany.
Made from a very interesting Aluminium alloy.
Feels like aircraft alloy.

It sounds like the sort of spoon my father got out of a German tank and brought home during WW2. It was a great curiosity to us who only knew EPNS and cheap base metal cutlery because it was so light.

 

[Macaroon]

I have been using EPNS cutlery for donkey's years, most of the forks and spoons missing a good deal of their plating, without mishap. I have also a couple of kitchen 'gadgets' made from cutting and re-shaping said cutlery also without issue. The only precaution I take is to wash stuff before use if I haven't used them for some time and they look a little dull.

It's wise to be sure you're not sensitive to Nickel, that seems quite a common problem for folk these days.