The origin of the 'Christmas Tree'...
- Thread starter Matt Weir
- Start date
An interesting post, but I do fear a rant coming on. I am proud to admit that I am very much a Christian and in one respect I really couldn't care less where a particular tradition came from what is important to me what it means and represents to ME. I strongly respect the rights and beliefs of everyone no matter what they are as long as they don't hurt someone else. If someone wants to put a tree in their house to ward off the evil spirits that dwell in the corners then fine, for me the tree represents the hope that springs from my Christian faith. The importance of trees has significance in every religion from the ancient mesopotamian religions to ancient Judaism of which Christianity is a continuation. It is imposible to say where the idea of special trees originated, as a Christian I would be inclined to say that it began with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. But maybe that is all symbolic as well, it really doesn't matter to me, like all symbols it is the meaning behind them that really counts.
I also don't believe for a second that the early Christians got the date of Christ's birth wrong. I'm sure they were totally aware of the fact that He wasn't born on the 25th of December. And whether they chose that particular date because of the solstice or the Saturnalia or whatever, again it is the meaning that is important.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm having a go at anything that's been said, that isn't my intention and as a historian I find the different traditions fascinating, but I cant help but feel that some of this thread is just slightly anti-christian (maybe I'm paranoid), I don't agree with the fact tha we live in a society where we have to walk on eggshells so as not to offend people, but nevertheless we do, only Christianity seems to be fair game. No one would dare post anything that could even be construed as being anti-Islamic or anti-Semetic but no one blinks at knocking Christianity.
Rant over
Merry Christmas
Heath
I also don't believe for a second that the early Christians got the date of Christ's birth wrong. I'm sure they were totally aware of the fact that He wasn't born on the 25th of December. And whether they chose that particular date because of the solstice or the Saturnalia or whatever, again it is the meaning that is important.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm having a go at anything that's been said, that isn't my intention and as a historian I find the different traditions fascinating, but I cant help but feel that some of this thread is just slightly anti-christian (maybe I'm paranoid), I don't agree with the fact tha we live in a society where we have to walk on eggshells so as not to offend people, but nevertheless we do, only Christianity seems to be fair game. No one would dare post anything that could even be construed as being anti-Islamic or anti-Semetic but no one blinks at knocking Christianity.
Rant over
Merry Christmas
Heath
This thread is no more anti-Christianity than it is pro-pagan; it is people talking about the origin of a Christmas symbol, not a Christian symbol.
I get the feeling from a lot of Christians I know, that they, rather like GW Bush, feel that if it is not for Christianity then it MUST be against Christianity, and as a population Christians get away with less mocking than other religions, including Jews Hindus, and Muslims.
Not to put to fine a point on this but its not always about you sometimes what you see in a post is what is in a post, there is no agenda, hidden meaning, or secret conspiracy to mock anyone who is of a particular belief. Not on this site at least.
Sorry you feel that the thread has an anti-christian slant.
I am not an "anything" but respect all religions when the belifes are sincerely held and would hate to upset anyone.
The basic rules of most religions include respect for others and this is one every one should agree on!
I find the various ideas on the origin of the Christmas tree interesting but as I see no reference to it in the Bible or other "mainstream" religious Book then I will asume that it is one that Christians adopted from non "mainstream" religion as a very useful way of actually explaining that the belifes of other religions are not that far from many Christian belifes and we can all share in the joys of this season of goodwill and renewal.
Merry Christmas/Saturnalia/Solstice and a peaceful 2008 to you all!
I am not an "anything" but respect all religions when the belifes are sincerely held and would hate to upset anyone.
The basic rules of most religions include respect for others and this is one every one should agree on!
I find the various ideas on the origin of the Christmas tree interesting but as I see no reference to it in the Bible or other "mainstream" religious Book then I will asume that it is one that Christians adopted from non "mainstream" religion as a very useful way of actually explaining that the belifes of other religions are not that far from many Christian belifes and we can all share in the joys of this season of goodwill and renewal.
Merry Christmas/Saturnalia/Solstice and a peaceful 2008 to you all!
Saturnalia, was the 25th of December. Also the attributed birth date of Mithras also sometimes refered to as Sol Invictus, the most important worshipper of whom was the Emperor Constantine who (among others) instituted the Council of Nicaea (325ad/bce/whatever) the purpose of which was effectively to formalise Christianity into broadly what we know it as today.
The Solstice as has been pointed out occurs tomorrow at ~6am, however it's widely believed that Celtic day started at sundown, therefore at sundown tonight everyone who does, can start celebrating.
Personaly, I'm not a Christian, I would fall into the Pagan bracket too, intellectually I do have a few issues with the way all Judeo-Christian religions have come to their ascendency, and I do have a problem with those that insist on proselytising. That said I don't care what faith anyone holds, if any, if you're a decent human being you're worthy of respect in my book.
On the topic of the Tree and reference to it in mainstream religion, I'm sure you'll agree mainstream is dependant on your point of view (cue Obi Wan Kenobi moment
), the then-mainstream religions that Christianity borrowed from no longer survive in their original form. There is no good written record of religious practices from pre-Christian Europe, for a whole host of reasons but primarily I think because it wasn't codified in the same way that major, organised religions are today. Most of what we of a pagan persuasion practice is inference and from a sense of what feels right because it works for us. Folk practices survive but in most cases the real meaning is lost, in that same way that perhaps in another couple of thousand years even Xmas itself will be transformed into nothing more than a present giving festival, social history is one of constant evolution.
So a happy festive season to all, regardless of when you open your pressies. Unless you're a Jehovah's Witness in which case sorry you've got no pressies, but hope you enjoy the season anyway. And may your God(s) (and Goddesses) look favourably on you in the coming year.
The Solstice as has been pointed out occurs tomorrow at ~6am, however it's widely believed that Celtic day started at sundown, therefore at sundown tonight everyone who does, can start celebrating.
Personaly, I'm not a Christian, I would fall into the Pagan bracket too, intellectually I do have a few issues with the way all Judeo-Christian religions have come to their ascendency, and I do have a problem with those that insist on proselytising. That said I don't care what faith anyone holds, if any, if you're a decent human being you're worthy of respect in my book.
On the topic of the Tree and reference to it in mainstream religion, I'm sure you'll agree mainstream is dependant on your point of view (cue Obi Wan Kenobi moment
), the then-mainstream religions that Christianity borrowed from no longer survive in their original form. There is no good written record of religious practices from pre-Christian Europe, for a whole host of reasons but primarily I think because it wasn't codified in the same way that major, organised religions are today. Most of what we of a pagan persuasion practice is inference and from a sense of what feels right because it works for us. Folk practices survive but in most cases the real meaning is lost, in that same way that perhaps in another couple of thousand years even Xmas itself will be transformed into nothing more than a present giving festival, social history is one of constant evolution.So a happy festive season to all, regardless of when you open your pressies. Unless you're a Jehovah's Witness in which case sorry you've got no pressies, but hope you enjoy the season anyway. And may your God(s) (and Goddesses) look favourably on you in the coming year.
Thanks for your comments John & Tadpole.
When I read your post Tadpole I re-read the whole thread to see if I had gone over the top with my comments, I said that maybe I'm being paranoid and that still stands, but I still see comments that I think are having a dig at Christianity. I don't think that the thread is anti-Christian and I never said I did, I said that SOME of the comments I think have a SLIGHTLY anti-Christian slant (and I still do). To be honest Tadpole I think that I probably should have kept my mouth shut, however I think that your response is an over reaction. To be fair I haven't even hinted in the least that there is any kind of secret agenda to anything, in fact I think your taking this much more seriously than I am. I am not having a go at anyone. And I haven't specified any particular comments. I feel quite sure that everyone that has posted on this thread is decent and conscientious and would not intend to offend anyone.
I don't think that something that isn't for Christianity is against Christianity, and moreover I don't think that most Christians are like Bush anymore than I think that most Muslims are like Saddam Hussein. I don't like generalisations, because they don't work.
Surely a Christmas tree is a Christian symbol, just as Christmas is a Christian festival, whether ideas have been adopted or not. Or maybe I'm wrong maybe it's not a Christian celebration after all, maybe it's been taken over again by something else entirely.
Heath
When I read your post Tadpole I re-read the whole thread to see if I had gone over the top with my comments, I said that maybe I'm being paranoid and that still stands, but I still see comments that I think are having a dig at Christianity. I don't think that the thread is anti-Christian and I never said I did, I said that SOME of the comments I think have a SLIGHTLY anti-Christian slant (and I still do). To be honest Tadpole I think that I probably should have kept my mouth shut, however I think that your response is an over reaction. To be fair I haven't even hinted in the least that there is any kind of secret agenda to anything, in fact I think your taking this much more seriously than I am. I am not having a go at anyone. And I haven't specified any particular comments. I feel quite sure that everyone that has posted on this thread is decent and conscientious and would not intend to offend anyone.
I don't think that something that isn't for Christianity is against Christianity, and moreover I don't think that most Christians are like Bush anymore than I think that most Muslims are like Saddam Hussein. I don't like generalisations, because they don't work.
Surely a Christmas tree is a Christian symbol, just as Christmas is a Christian festival, whether ideas have been adopted or not. Or maybe I'm wrong maybe it's not a Christian celebration after all, maybe it's been taken over again by something else entirely.
Heath
Here's a thought, how many of you have considered a "bushcrafty" side to the Yule log, we all know that Pine and other resinous conifers burn brightly, and that this time is the darkest time of the year. I've heard that the Yule log was to tide people over the winter, but don't see the sense in that - however from a bushcraft/psychological perspective it would make sense.
Heath
From your earlier post;
'only Christianity seems to be fair game. No one would dare post anything that could even be construed as being anti-Islamic or anti-Semetic but no one blinks at knocking Christianity'
Re Islam, any religious group that gives moral approval to stoning, hanging and mutilation in my view needs eradicating.
Re the Jewish religion, with their history how do they reconcile the oppression of the Palestinian tribes, keeping them in ghetto's and depriving them of electricity water and medical care.
Re Bush, how can he be criticized when he has direct approval from God to arm the Jews and lead a crusade against the infidel.
Conclusion: you can justify just about anything in the name of religion.
Merry Christmas
Pothunter.
From your earlier post;
'only Christianity seems to be fair game. No one would dare post anything that could even be construed as being anti-Islamic or anti-Semetic but no one blinks at knocking Christianity'
Re Islam, any religious group that gives moral approval to stoning, hanging and mutilation in my view needs eradicating.
Re the Jewish religion, with their history how do they reconcile the oppression of the Palestinian tribes, keeping them in ghetto's and depriving them of electricity water and medical care.
Re Bush, how can he be criticized when he has direct approval from God to arm the Jews and lead a crusade against the infidel.
Conclusion: you can justify just about anything in the name of religion.
Merry Christmas
Pothunter.
One thing I can remember from the bible (I dont bother with it much noawaday's)
What does god ask of you?
Love mercy, act justly and walk humbly with your god
I like the do to others as you would want them to do to you attitude, live and let live etc
For better or worse we live in a multi cultural society
Peace
What does god ask of you?
Love mercy, act justly and walk humbly with your god
I like the do to others as you would want them to do to you attitude, live and let live etc
For better or worse we live in a multi cultural society
Peace
So far the only pop I've taken at anybody in this thread is a tongue in cheek one at "Pagans"
I am usually very careful not to have a pop at Christians because they are almost as quick to take offence as Muslims.
Given almost two thousand years of direct and bloody subjugation of any religion that is not "their own" by Christians, it is hardly surprising that when it is finally a bit safer to put your head above the parapets and say "I don't agree with that!" a few people wish to do so.
What is even less surprising is that there is someone who then sticks their head up and says "We poor Christians that never did anyone any harm are being singled out for abuse."
Personally I think the Gods are dead, all of them. If people want to engage in a little nostalgic fun and festivities then good for them and I'll raise a glass too.
But always remember, it's a bad idea to confuse dogma with history, because some organized religions stand on very shaky moral ground in my view.
I am usually very careful not to have a pop at Christians because they are almost as quick to take offence as Muslims.
Given almost two thousand years of direct and bloody subjugation of any religion that is not "their own" by Christians, it is hardly surprising that when it is finally a bit safer to put your head above the parapets and say "I don't agree with that!" a few people wish to do so.
What is even less surprising is that there is someone who then sticks their head up and says "We poor Christians that never did anyone any harm are being singled out for abuse."
Personally I think the Gods are dead, all of them. If people want to engage in a little nostalgic fun and festivities then good for them and I'll raise a glass too.
But always remember, it's a bad idea to confuse dogma with history, because some organized religions stand on very shaky moral ground in my view.
I do agree with you Heath, just so that you aren't alone in feeling paranoid. And yes there have been comments, which while not anti-christian as such are certainly mocking of things such as the christian adoption of other ceremonies.
However, the past is the past. We can't change what our ancestors did, and while we can discuss whether they were right or wrong, one thing that is wrong for sure is putting your head over the parapet and having a go at someone over something that someone else did in the past.
I know a lot of christians, and while yes, some of them are blinkered in their opinions about things, who isn't?
However, the past is the past. We can't change what our ancestors did, and while we can discuss whether they were right or wrong, one thing that is wrong for sure is putting your head over the parapet and having a go at someone over something that someone else did in the past.
I know a lot of christians, and while yes, some of them are blinkered in their opinions about things, who isn't?
I totally agree with you and I think that is half of the problem. I'm not sure everyone is prepared to accept the difference between what people do in the name of religion and what true religion is. I think Mr Dazzler has got it spot on. I know that a lot of people feel that religion is there to control people, but unfortunately far too many people have controlled religion, abused it and used it for their own means.
I sincerely apologise for turning parts of this thread into a religious discussion. I wish I hadn't bothered posting in the first place. I don't wish to upset or offend anyone and for the record I'm not offended by anything anyone else has said, I don't expect you to know any better you heathens (joking)
Have a good Christmas
Heath
I don't feel you have a need to apologise Heath, while I fundamentally disagree with your chosen faith, I stand by your right to hold those beliefs and to express yourself. I don't think you said anything to offend anyone and if anyone was truely offended then it is in this case more a measure of their own tolerance.
Wayland made a light-hearted comment about the Gods being dead, I disagree. They were never alive, all religion is man-made, like art and like art, it's not about the particulars, it's about what it's an expresion of. So, though I am not Christian and never have been, I am more than happy to revel in the spirit of this festive season.
Wayland made a light-hearted comment about the Gods being dead, I disagree. They were never alive, all religion is man-made, like art and like art, it's not about the particulars, it's about what it's an expresion of. So, though I am not Christian and never have been, I am more than happy to revel in the spirit of this festive season.
Heath, christmas may have been a christian tradition in the past. But to be honest, and I think more people can agree to some degree with this, nowadays it is all about consumerism. Bye more stuff! Buy more expensive food!
That said I love being with my family and eating nice food, but I have declined all crimbo presents this year. I'm sick of it.
That said I love being with my family and eating nice food, but I have declined all crimbo presents this year. I'm sick of it.
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Can you see why we are not suppose to discuss religion and politics now.
Well anyway, bringing pine, holly, ivy, mistletoe into the house brightens up our grim northern winters no end. The year i did deck the bows with holly and ivy, i had enough fire lighters (dried holly leaves) for a year. Maybe we brought plants in to dry them for other uses through out the year.
There is alot of firecraft properties to the plants we use in our houses in winter. a yule log should be oak as far as I know. what use is dried ivy?
Well anyway, bringing pine, holly, ivy, mistletoe into the house brightens up our grim northern winters no end. The year i did deck the bows with holly and ivy, i had enough fire lighters (dried holly leaves) for a year. Maybe we brought plants in to dry them for other uses through out the year.
There is alot of firecraft properties to the plants we use in our houses in winter. a yule log should be oak as far as I know. what use is dried ivy?
for treating lung problems, whooping cough and asthma...
Medical people are investigating to see it there is a medical reason for dried ivy to work, as it has proved rather effective in non-clinical trials
Wow, I stand corrected. I posted some while ago complaining about when I ripped out heaps of ivy from my hedge and some of my trees, I had the notion ivy was nowt but a useless pathetic parasite that only managed to kill otherwise healthy tree's :11doh:
Sorry Heath if you have found this thread a dig at Christainty. From what I have found from history is that the festval was borrowed, nothing wrong with borrowing lots of religons and cultures have done it. It was most likely used so "pagan" felt more comfortable with conversion to Christainty. Sorry if it sounds offencsive it not meant it's just the facts. Have a good Christmas
I did burn a yule log last year, a nice piece of oak I wish I'd kept now.
I did burn a yule log last year, a nice piece of oak I wish I'd kept now.
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