The best quality light sleeping system for -20°C

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peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
I'm searching for best quality light sleeping system for -20°C. It can be one sleeping bag, two sleeping bag, quilt or combination of bag and quilt. Sleeping system will be used for hot and cold tent camping. If anyone have some suggestions about that it will be nice!
 

Shewie

Mod
Mod
Dec 15, 2005
24,259
24
48
Yorkshire
Do you have a budget? If you want the lightest, most compressible and best then you should look at down filled bags rather than synthetic.

It all depends on what you need or want though, if you only walk a few miles to a camp now and then, you could save a few pennies by looking at surplus military gear. Or spend a bit more and go for the top end military kit like the Carinthia you linked to.

the last military type bag I had was a Snugpak Elite 4, great bag and not too expensive, packed to about the size of a football and kept my toasty well past -10*c several times.
 

peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
Do you have a budget? If you want the lightest, most compressible and best then you should look at down filled bags rather than synthetic.

It all depends on what you need or want though, if you only walk a few miles to a camp now and then, you could save a few pennies by looking at surplus military gear. Or spend a bit more and go for the top end military kit like the Carinthia you linked to.

the last military type bag I had was a Snugpak Elite 4, great bag and not too expensive, packed to about the size of a football and kept my toasty well past -10*c several times.

For now I'm opening for any suggestion in a matter of the budget. I like to know what is the best solution for that temperature range. After that I will be thinking about budget... Maybe one cheaper system will be equally efficient like some other more expensive...
Very important thing is, that bag or system is comfortable in -20°C, because in winter time on location when I plan to camp those temp. occasionally will be present. Maybe two cheaper bags it's not bad idea, e.g. from snugpak? Maybe with bivi bag on the top? This system I'll tend to use probably 2-3 times per year for few days in a row. But who knows, maybe if I have a chance for more extended trip, it will be good and for such conditions. In the matter of walking distance, I think that will be 5-10 km in one direction.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Lightweight you're looking at down. Just don't get it wet.

Best non-down bags are - imho - Wiggys bags. http://wiggys.com/ Until another manufacturer guarantees (and honours) their bags for life - and that includes its loft - and recommends you wash them as often as you like - then I'll stick to my recommendation! This video is interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc

Remember that the temps mentioned in his adverts are in Fahrenheit, not Centigrade, so a Wiggys 0 (F) degree bag is -18C.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Yes, but you don't need one if you cinch it up with the drawstring. Oh, and he's the only manufacturer who says its ok to leave the bag fully compressed in a stuff bag for as long as you like, and still guarantees the loft for life....warning - DON't try this with down!
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
Lightweight you're looking at down. Just don't get it wet.

The wet down thing is a weird one.

No doubt that if you dipped a down and a synthetic bag in a stream, the synthetic would offer more warmth than the down.
If it's dripping wet though even synthetic bags won't offer anywhere near the insulation as when they're dry.
*edit just watched the vid you posted Andy, impressive but i wonder how much the waterproof fabric is responsible for keeping the warmth in (i.e, not allowing the insulation to wet out)

For hiking and the like (i.e. non water based activities) in my experience you'd struggle to get a down bag wet enough to lose a lot of it's insulation if you use some common sense.
Add the fact that many down bags these days (PHD included) come with a rainproof outer shell (not waterproof as the seams aren't sealed) and as i say you'd have to be going some to get the bag wet enough to lose it's insulation.

I wouldn't bivvy a down bag without a waterproof outer bivvy, but then i wouldn't with a synthetic bag either.

I've had my down bag outside the tent airing and lofting while i nipped for some water, only for it to bucket it down.
My bag was out in the type of rain i could only describe as biblical, for at least 10mins, shook it off, gave it a wipe down and i honestly can't say that it was any colder that night even though my bag is rated at 5c and it was about 5c during the night.


So although there is some truth to the wet down thing in my experience in real world type use it's not really a problem for those of us carrying out land based activities.

Should add that if i was canoeing or doing other water based activities in cold weather then i'd go for synthetic, but for land based activities if you use a bit of common sense down is fine.
 
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Limaed

Full Member
Apr 11, 2006
1,288
67
48
Perth
I think a down bag made for mountaineers by a brand you can trust is the way forward (Mountain Equipment, RAB etc). I'rd be really cautious about the manufactures claims on temperature ratings unless the brand has a proven record for the types of activites you want to do.
Snugpak for example are a great brand but in my experience they tend to overestimate thier temperature rating by at least 5*c. I've done a few high altitude trips to South America and the Himalayas and at the temperatures encountered a good sleeping bag is a critical piece of kit if you don't want to end up with hypothermia.
 

peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
Lightweight you're looking at down. Just don't get it wet.

Best non-down bags are - imho - Wiggys bags. http://wiggys.com/ Until another manufacturer guarantees (and honours) their bags for life - and that includes its loft - and recommends you wash them as often as you like - then I'll stick to my recommendation! This video is interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc

Remember that the temps mentioned in his adverts are in Fahrenheit, not Centigrade, so a Wiggys 0 (F) degree bag is -18C.

I looking for light but if I can get the same or better insulation properties from synthetic bags and for much less money... well... in that case probably my common sense will recheck my preferences :) I'v seen Wiggys bags and I can tell you that are much more cheaper than many bags for that temperature range... If they are good like you say this is something what anyone must to have for winter camping... Thanks! Definitely they gone on my top list of priorities!
 
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peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
I think a down bag made for mountaineers by a brand you can trust is the way forward (Mountain Equipment, RAB etc). I'rd be really cautious about the manufactures claims on temperature ratings unless the brand has a proven record for the types of activites you want to do.
Snugpak for example are a great brand but in my experience they tend to overestimate thier temperature rating by at least 5*c. I've done a few high altitude trips to South America and the Himalayas and at the temperatures encountered a good sleeping bag is a critical piece of kit if you don't want to end up with hypothermia.

I agree with you... I'm not a cold sleeper but I will look that my bag is 10°C warmer than what manufacturer says...
 

peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
Lightweight you're looking at down. Just don't get it wet.

Best non-down bags are - imho - Wiggys bags.

I was search on the net about wiggy's bags and seems to me that are bulletproof and warm but to much bulk for backpack... Great properties but maybe more convenient for sledding, hauling or car camping... than for backpack... But great product and not to much expensive for what you get... Do you know some other synthetic bags or with treated down which are similar in terms of endurance of wiggy's bags?

But in another hand... If bag is smaller than MSS and if you have big enough rucksack for few days it will be just fine...

Two of those is interesting to me:

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=152

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=227
 
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peter_

Tenderfoot
Dec 3, 2014
50
0
Croatia
What about combination of two bags for sleeping system, with or without a bivi bag? They can be both synthetic or down or combination of those two materials...
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
In my experience they make a huge difference. I've no idea why he would even contemplate leaving out such a fundamental and common sense feature.

:jacked:

All I can say to that is - try the Wiggys bags! They just work, and keep on working, year after year, wash after wash. Maybe its because they don't use chopped-fill, quilting techniques that generate cold spots, or that Lamilite is even half as good as Wiggy claims! And he does make some interesting claims.... For example

As an example, one of our Ultima Thule sleeping bags was compacted under 20 tons of pressure. It was blister packed in two poly bags the size of 14 1/2” x 9 1/2” x 2 3/4”. After four days it was opened and in one hour, without assistance, 90% of its loft returned. A Lamilite insulated sleeping bag is the only synthetic bag ever put through this test that returned to its original loft. Not even a down bag will return to almost original, actually the down bags deteriorate when vacuum packed. It is for this reason that I guarantee my sleeping bags will never lose their loft. The Alaska National Guard, as part of their survival gear, uses the Ultima Thule. The bags are left in the vacuum package until needed. In 1994 the U.S. Navy authorized an Ultima Thule, vacuum packed, as the official survival bag carried by aircraft and ships. In addition, they determined that it actually performed at -35? F.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
I havent read all the posts but have seen wiggys mentioned. OMG!
Ive never experienced comfort like that! But I specifically bought it for a trip where -40 is likely.

Ive also got a Rab bag, rated -5C, which I would pair with my jervens king size bag, which would keep me warm at -20C.

And it'll keep me warm worn as a mothership jacket, and used as a bivi in the arctic. Or sitting on a cold wet hill in scotland....

When sleeping my clothing layers would also differ.

Plus theyre just freakin cool. :D
 
Last edited:

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
The wet down thing is a weird one.

No doubt that if you dipped a down and a synthetic bag in a stream, the synthetic would offer more warmth than the down.
If it's dripping wet though even synthetic bags won't offer anywhere near the insulation as when they're dry.
*edit just watched the vid you posted Andy, impressive but i wonder how much the waterproof fabric is responsible for keeping the warmth in (i.e, not allowing the insulation to wet out)

For hiking and the like (i.e. non water based activities) in my experience you'd struggle to get a down bag wet enough to lose a lot of it's insulation if you use some common sense.
Add the fact that many down bags these days (PHD included) come with a rainproof outer shell (not waterproof as the seams aren't sealed) and as i say you'd have to be going some to get the bag wet enough to lose it's insulation.

I wouldn't bivvy a down bag without a waterproof outer bivvy, but then i wouldn't with a synthetic bag either.

I've had my down bag outside the tent airing and lofting while i nipped for some water, only for it to bucket it down.
My bag was out in the type of rain i could only describe as biblical, for at least 10mins, shook it off, gave it a wipe down and i honestly can't say that it was any colder that night even though my bag is rated at 5c and it was about 5c during the night.


So although there is some truth to the wet down thing in my experience in real world type use it's not really a problem for those of us carrying out land based activities.

Should add that if i was canoeing or doing other water based activities in cold weather then i'd go for synthetic, but for land based activities if you use a bit of common sense down is fine.

Re that video, a couple of points stood out for me. Firstly that the bag was soaked inside as well as out, and secondly that in the morning he - and the bag - was completely dry. So clearly the bag surface material was not acting as a water barrier. In temps down to -20C, I've had my Wiggys bag completely dry inside, but a thick layer of frost on the outside in the morning. Presumably the couple of pints everyone sweats overnight had passed through the bag and frozen immediately on contact with the outside air. (the bag I was using was a wiggys superlight, with a stated temp rating of 0F = -18C. And despite - stupidly - sleeping on a luxurylite mesh cot (which meant an airgap underneath me which is definitely not recommended in subzero temps!) I was warm all night. Although if anyone was heading towards, or below, -20C temps I'd recommend the Ultima Thule.

Re down, I've had a number of down bags in the past (and still have one - a Valandri Lhotse 1100 - luvverly). And yes, they are light, very comfy and warm when clean. But the "sweat" thing means they need airing effectively daily, which is not always possible. Furthermore, the night sweats, miscellaneous body oils etc mean the down gradually gets dirty, which damages the loft and associated warmth. Which means washing the bag frequently to retain the loft. And you can't just toss it in the washing machine like you can the Wiggys. Or store it in a compression sac.

Weight is an interesting one. Clearly, down wins the weight/temp competition. But synthetic? Having had a variety of quality synthetic bags in the past, I just don't believe most of their temp claims - if you take 10C off most claims you'll be about right. From a "book" comparison, Wiggy bags tend to be a bit heavier than the opposition synthetic bags making similar temp claims. Difference is that Wiggy's temps seem pretty accurate. so you're not comparing like with like. The old adage "carry light, sleep cold" might be worth considering!

There is one type of sleeping bag that hasn't been covered yet - the Buffalo bag systems, using fibre-pile as a lining. I've had these in the past, and they are a real option to other synthetic bags. You'll need at least two bags together to face serious sub-zero temps, but that does give you flexibility in warmer weather as well.
 

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